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Fleet Tempest is a Flavourless Redumbdancy
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-02-25 15:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaston Gaterau
TLDR version: The Fleet Tempest is just a pointless Rustbucket of inferiority to the Machariel, not worth the duct tape which holds it together.

First, let us compare the Fleet Tempest relative to the Machariel. This comparison is extremely pertinent with the drastic decline of Pirate Faction Battleship Hulls, such that the Mach costs almost as little as the Fleet Tempest (but has always existed in my mind, since I added it last, finishing off my carebear collection of Shiney Battleships.)


Pros


Slightly better base EHP
A little cheaper
50 extra calibration

Cons

Everything else, ie everything Important, including but not limited to:
Speed/Agility
Warp Speed/Acceleration (although I believe that is just a further redumbdancy of description)
DPS
Damage Application (Falloff)
Drone Bay/Bandwidth
Targeting/Sensor Strength
Capacitor
Cool Factor

Now, in 99.9% of Fleet Tempests, you will be fitting a module, almost certainly several, which attempt to bring the Fleet Tempest up to par with the Mach in one of those ways (listed as cons). This essentially cancels out the EHP bonus and almost all of what you can do with that extra 50 calibration, as you could just fit the Mach with modules in place of whatever you are attempting to improve the Fleet Tempest with, but with a better overall end result.

Other Factors

Availability from LP stores (Does anyone even do Minmatar FW?)
Gallente Battleship Requirement (Barely an issue, as it simply adds further bonus to the Mach's superiority)
Higher Degree of Verticality (Admittedly Noteworthy)


No Other Faction Battleship suffers to this problem to anywhere near such a degree

The Navy Mega/Scorpion are noteworthy for their 8th low/mid slot repectively,
The Navy Domi for its Hybrid/Drone Output with 6th midslot
The Navy Raven for its Application (Range/Sig bonus)
The Navy Apoc for making the most best apllied turret type even more so
The Fleet Typhoon for its versatility and combined DPS potential
And finally, The Navy Geddon for having nothing in common with its base hull (but also being all around strong)

For these ships, EHP and calibration compound upon the at least somewhat flavourful existing bonuses.

Ultimately, it all comes back to pretending the Tempest hulls has 2 bonuses, when it infact has the single DPS bonus expressed twice. This also serves to make the hull fairly pathetic without the Full Minmatar Battleship V skilled, due to the way these stack, again in contrast with the Mach, being vastly superior in this case. This is perhaps understandable on the Navy Exequror, where its DPS and base stats really stand out within its class, but a damn cop-out on the Tempest hull.

Summary: The Fleet Tempest (and preferably also the Base Tempest) needs something to make it stand out. I don't know if that is a tracking bonus or a signature radius reduction or what, but being "the barely cheaper projectile ship" is not acceptable!

Long Live CAS of the Gallente, and Glory to our Minmatar Allies!
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#2 - 2015-02-25 17:25:33 UTC
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way anavy mega is out classed by a vindicator. Let's compare a rattlesnake to a navy scorpion!

Is the fleet tempest (and regular tempest) underwhelming? Meh, more of an issue with battleships as a whole right now but they could probably be brought up some, especially the regular tempest.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-02-25 18:18:08 UTC
A TFI will be inferior to a mach if you try and fit it to try and be like a mach.

That's why you fit a TFI like a TFI and not a mach.

Art of Explosions
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-02-25 19:40:42 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
A TFI will be inferior to a mach if you try and fit it to try and be like a mach.

That's why you fit a TFI like a TFI and not a mach.


Ok well show me a TFI that is fit like a TFI, and i'll show you a mach that is fit like that TFI but better, unless you are doing something amazing with that 50 calibration
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#5 - 2015-02-25 20:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
MJD is your GTFO option

[Tempest Fleet Issue, New Setup 1]
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Micro Jump Drive
Stasis Webifier II
100MN Microwarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

142K hit points
808 DPS
3+24k falloff (3+31k with script)
1034 m/s cold
1478 m/s overheated

Costs 240 million if you use loyalty points
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#6 - 2015-02-25 21:25:45 UTC
You're forgetting the main advantage that the Fleet Tempest has over the Mach.

Wingy bits.
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#7 - 2015-02-25 21:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
PL has used them with varying degrees of success vs. HERO.

[Tempest Fleet Issue, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Afterburner II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Medium Graviton Smartbomb II
Medium Graviton Smartbomb II

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

Smartbombs are for firewalling bombers, though in practice bomb waves just get launched to the edges of the fleet. 235k ehp before boosts, 40k optimal, 70k falloff and an 8k+ alpha. It's not the best at anything, but it's got strong stats overall, which make it a good choice for certain activities.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-02-25 22:55:04 UTC
As OP said he is true carebear and try to compare tfi and mach from this pov.

Two fits above are pvp related and if we try to compare tfi vs mach on the battle field is a different topic.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#9 - 2015-02-25 23:20:08 UTC
The TFI is literally worse in every way and now it doesn't even cost less than a mach. Truly a garbage ship and it should just be removed from the game.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#10 - 2015-02-25 23:58:57 UTC
my apple is way better than my bananana cause its better for making toffee apples.

... What next ??
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-02-26 10:14:02 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
As OP said he is true carebear and try to compare tfi and mach from this pov.

Two fits above are pvp related and if we try to compare tfi vs mach on the battle field is a different topic.



Actually, that is not the case. I PvP a little, and those 2 fits are fine, but you can fit the Mach the exact same way, if you for some reason choose to trade out the extra DPS of the 7th turret for the second neut or SB. Then it's equal or better in every way, except for EHP by a few percentage points.


GordonO wrote:
my apple is way better than my bananana cause its better for making toffee apples.


That's the whole point. It's not comparing apples to bananas. The TFI literally has nothing which makes it different from the Mach, but the Mach has a ton of bonuses. It's comparing an apple to a shoddier version of the same apple.

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-02-26 10:38:11 UTC
that's a pointless to compare these two ships.

it's the same as you to compare dramiel and cynabal with firetail, stabber. angel ships way better than fleet issue ones. that's why i don't understand why to bother. was TFI ever same effective and efficient as mach? no. current prices on pirate bs got nothing to do with ships stats.

if u don't like it leave it alone and do not include into your carebear colletion just add one more mach instead.

and btw i'm pretty sure you don't pvp nor on mach neither tfi

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Claud Tiberius
#13 - 2015-02-26 10:43:28 UTC
Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:

Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.



Lore wise, this doesn't really make sense. Because T3 ships are property of the factions and with T3 ships being so strong ( > T2 and Pirate), you would think they would give them to the Navy's. But nope.

Why the factions let pirates and corporations (T2) build better ships than their navies - I don't know. Although I can understand why it is the case in the Caldari state.

That's all excluding the capital ships btw.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-02-26 10:58:42 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
that's a pointless to compare these two ships.

it's the same as you to compare dramiel and cynabal with firetail, stabber. angel ships way better than fleet issue ones. that's why i don't understand why to bother. was TFI ever same effective and efficient as mach? no. current prices on pirate bs got nothing to do with ships stats.

if u don't like it leave it alone and do not include into your carebear colletion just add one more mach instead.

and btw i'm pretty sure you don't pvp nor on mach neither tfi


It's kind of true about the dramiel/firetail in that it's a result of the Angel ships not having a truly distinctive bonus like other pirate faction ships. The main difference is that a dramiel costs about 3x as much as a firetail. I'm not complaining about there being better versions of the same ship, as that's what Navy Issues are all about, but i do take issue with the Fleet Tempest, as no other Empire Faction ship gets shafted like that, as i kind of explained. You can say it's "pointless" to compare all you want, but then i think the same about the little opinion you added in the last line.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2015-02-26 11:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered cane on steroids.
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-02-26 11:33:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids.


The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI.
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-02-26 11:38:18 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:

Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.


Navy are less effective, and i don't have any problem with that, but the it's when it becomes less effective *in every way*, that i begin to dislike the ship. The other Navy ships aren't just carbon copies of a Pirate ship with effectiveness shaved off.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2015-02-26 11:44:12 UTC
Gaston Gaterau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids.


The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI.


So thats one utility high not two on the mach.

You get more tank in the FNI.
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-26 12:03:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gaston Gaterau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids.


The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI.


So thats one utility high not two on the mach.

You get more tank in the FNI.


There's no such thing as a "utility" high slot. It's just a high slot. The mach has 8 and the TNI has 8.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2015-02-26 12:10:03 UTC
Gaston Gaterau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gaston Gaterau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids.


The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI.


So thats one utility high not two on the mach.

You get more tank in the FNI.


There's no such thing as a "utility" high slot. It's just a high slot. The mach has 8 and the TNI has 8.


A utility high is what you get when you have more highslots than weapon mounts. TNI has two, mach has one.

Right now you are going out of your way to come up with excuses to not fly this ship, you are the worst kind of pilot.
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