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CCP Rise confirms Tengu/Caldari Nerf! hahahaha tengu RIP
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#21 - 2015-02-25 21:10:48 UTC
Oh great t3s maybe they will fix loki so it can be used w shild web combo outside l3 missions.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#22 - 2015-02-25 21:12:38 UTC
do you mind at least include the quote in your OP ??

It's a hell to scroll through that drivel in comments
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#23 - 2015-02-25 21:15:50 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
do you mind at least include the quote in your OP ??

It's a hell to scroll through that drivel in comments

Looks like you fell for a very clever and subtle "waste your time" troll, eh

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-02-25 21:25:33 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'm 14 days from Tengu.

14 days ago, I said to myself "I'm going to trigger a Tengu nerf by training for them".

Seriously, I thought this. I was right.

If you all knew my other thoughts and how right I was in various RL issues you'd lose sleep.

For the most part, I think this nerf is directed at the Russians. CCP why do you hate Russians?


I was training another char into them at the same time. I guess you could say I did it on purpose to try and trigger exactly this kind of thing =p

Everyone train for Ishtars now.

Or make new characters and train those for Ishtars cause I swear, there is not a character left that can't fly them yet.
Bel Tika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-02-25 22:08:25 UTC
Sigh i just queued up my subsystem and strategic cruiser skills

"goes in the corner to cry"
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#26 - 2015-02-25 22:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Guaranteed the Proteus and Legion will see a change to Augmented Plating from +10% to +5% and an adjustment to base armour hit points. Let the tears commence...

Now we just need to change the Ishtar to hybrids and eliminate drones from it altogether.
Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2015-02-25 22:28:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


Now we just need to change the Ishtar to hybrids and eliminate drones from it altogether.
Twisted


No no. All we do is remove the sentries from it, the rage will be all the more potent if they can still use the heavies.
Blobskillz McBlub
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-02-25 22:34:06 UTC
adjusting the EHP is hardly the problem for a ship that is mainly used in 100+ man fights where ship EHP begins to matter less and less as DPS from so many players will alpha almost anything.

the core problem with the tengu is its range bonus to medium hybrid weapons which gives it damage application capabilities at ranges which should be reserved for battleship sized guns.

this is also the same problem on the Ishtar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2015-02-25 22:39:26 UTC
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:
adjusting the EHP is hardly the problem for a ship that is mainly used in 100+ man fights where ship EHP begins to matter less and less as DPS from so many players will alpha almost anything.

the core problem with the tengu is its range bonus to medium hybrid weapons which gives it damage application capabilities at ranges which should be reserved for battleship sized guns.

this is also the same problem on the Ishtar


Oh it is very much the battleship like tank on a ship with a tiny sig.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2015-02-25 22:43:50 UTC
http://youtu.be/73-GmF_ZnJo

tl;dr if you don't want to watch the very short clip: I am not impressed.


HP MATH (with 2x LSE II and 3x CDFE II):
x = shield HP. x * 1.5 = 33907HP. x = 33907/1.5 = 22604HP before the % bonus from the SSS. 22604 * 1.25 (new bonus) = 28255HP, which coincidentally is the exact same amount of raw shield HP the current hull will have if you remove a single CDFE II rig, which many pilots already do if their skills aren't perfect. The new hull will still have 224k EHP with links before heat. This is still far more than it should have and still completely supersedes all battleships.

Rebalance the Tengu engineering subsystems so that the Cap Regeneration Matrix does not give more flat PG than the Powergrid Multiplier (PGx from here-on) flat bonus * percent bonus, and does not give more flat total cap than the Augmented Cap Reservoir flat bonus * percent bonus. The CRM is better than every other subsystem in every way except heat dissipation. Speaking of which, reduce the flat PG on the Supplemental Coolant Injector as well. It has the same flat PG as the CRM. Too much PG!

This will force the Tengu to use the PGx to get the grid it needs for a 2x LSE II fit, as well as giving it another high slot and turret hardpoint in exchange for the lost dps low-slot. With 6 turrets and 2x MFS IIs it's new dps will be 515 (from 482, a 6.8% increase) with CN Antimatter, which is a very slight increase in dps and a noticeable (13.5%) increase in volley damage from 1439 to 1634. But it also means more cap usage. Total cap life will now be 6'28" because no more cap regen matrix. This is still in-line with current HAC dps and volley damage numbers.

This is balanced! This means the Tengu will hit a bit harder early, but will have less staying power, especially since its resists depend on all those active hardeners.

Using the PGx instead of the CRM and figuring the increase in total turrets, the Tengu will be right at its max PG without any implants and will still have an open utility high slot. So if you want to fill that utility high slot, you need to either remove a low slot damage module for an RCU, or remove a CDFE II for an ACR. Doing so will allow it to fit a small nuet or cyno without any issue. I consider both of these fitting sacrifices well-balanced. Removing a CDFE II will leave it with 162k EHP before heat. You could even remove all 3 and still have 138k EHP, which is far more EHP than any HAC in the game while still maintaining a perfectly viable ship that is not completely destroying the sub-cap meta.


SIGRAD.

+8m sigRad. Pathetic. With 2x LSE IIs, this will up its sigRad from 207 to 215. Throw on those 3x CDFE IIs (stacking penalized at 5% per rig) currently gives 233m, a 12.56 % increase overall. Max mindlinked Claymore links reduces that by 34.5% to 153m. (There may be some rounding errors there.)

So 215 * 1.1256 * (1-.345) = 158.5m, up from 153m.


OTHER CHANGES.

The Adaptive Shielding Defensive Subsystem is completely out-classed by the Supplemental Screening Subsystem in every way except the bonus to remote shield reps. I've literally never seen one used outside of AT. So reducing the sigRad on that is pretty much pointless. But I'm sure TEST's T3 tinker pilot will thank you for the buff to his XLASB tanking ability come this summer.

Warfare Subprocessor increase in sigRad means easier to scan down in his safe. Ok. Makes sense.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2015-02-25 23:00:05 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
http://youtu.be/73-GmF_ZnJo

tl;dr if you don't want to watch the very short clip: I am not impressed.


HP MATH (with 2x LSE II and 3x CDFE II):
x = shield HP. x * 1.5 = 33907HP. x = 33907/1.5 = 22604HP before the % bonus from the SSS. 22604 * 1.25 (new bonus) = 28255HP, which coincidentally is the exact same amount of raw shield HP the current hull will have if you remove a single CDFE II rig, which many pilots already do if their skills aren't perfect. The new hull will still have 224k EHP with links before heat. This is still far more than it should have and still completely supersedes all battleships.

Rebalance the Tengu engineering subsystems so that the Cap Regeneration Matrix does not give more flat PG than the Powergrid Multiplier (PGx from here-on) flat bonus * percent bonus, and does not give more flat total cap than the Augmented Cap Reservoir flat bonus * percent bonus. The CRM is better than every other subsystem in every way except heat dissipation. Speaking of which, reduce the flat PG on the Supplemental Coolant Injector as well. It has the same flat PG as the CRM. Too much PG!

This will force the Tengu to use the PGx to get the grid it needs for a 2x LSE II fit, as well as giving it another high slot and turret hardpoint in exchange for the lost dps low-slot. With 6 turrets and 2x MFS IIs it's new dps will be 515 (from 482, a 6.8% increase) with CN Antimatter, which is a very slight increase in dps and a noticeable (13.5%) increase in volley damage from 1439 to 1634. But it also means more cap usage. Total cap life will now be 6'28" because no more cap regen matrix. This is still in-line with current HAC dps and volley damage numbers.

This is balanced! This means the Tengu will hit a bit harder early, but will have less staying power, especially since its resists depend on all those active hardeners.

Using the PGx instead of the CRM and figuring the increase in total turrets, the Tengu will be right at its max PG without any implants and will still have an open utility high slot. So if you want to fill that utility high slot, you need to either remove a low slot damage module for an RCU, or remove a CDFE II for an ACR. Doing so will allow it to fit a small nuet or cyno without any issue. I consider both of these fitting sacrifices well-balanced. Removing a CDFE II will leave it with 162k EHP before heat. You could even remove all 3 and still have 138k EHP, which is far more EHP than any HAC in the game while still maintaining a perfectly viable ship that is not completely destroying the sub-cap meta.


SIGRAD.

+8m sigRad. Pathetic. With 2x LSE IIs, this will up its sigRad from 207 to 215. Throw on those 3x CDFE IIs (stacking penalized at 5% per rig) currently gives 233m, a 12.56 % increase overall. Max mindlinked Claymore links reduces that by 34.5% to 153m. (There may be some rounding errors there.)

So 215 * 1.1256 * (1-.345) = 158.5m, up from 153m.


OTHER CHANGES.

The Adaptive Shielding Defensive Subsystem is completely out-classed by the Supplemental Screening Subsystem in every way except the bonus to remote shield reps. I've literally never seen one used outside of AT. So reducing the sigRad on that is pretty much pointless. But I'm sure TEST's T3 tinker pilot will thank you for the buff to his XLASB tanking ability come this summer.

Warfare Subprocessor increase in sigRad means easier to scan down in his safe. Ok. Makes sense.


I always said they need to keep hitting it with the bat until it stops twitching.
Ryuuji Ibarazaki
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-02-25 23:09:44 UTC
Nerf Tengu?! Japanese Tengu nerf yu CCP.

Disonrabu! Much disonrabu CCP.

-- 茨崎 竜児
Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
#33 - 2015-02-25 23:12:48 UTC
Istar is op, so let's nerf tengu.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#34 - 2015-02-25 23:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Soldarius wrote:

SIGRAD.

+8m sigRad. Pathetic. With 2x LSE IIs, this will up its sigRad from 207 to 215. Throw on those 3x CDFE IIs (stacking penalized at 5% per rig) currently gives 233m, a 12.56 % increase overall. Max mindlinked Claymore links reduces that by 34.5% to 153m. (There may be some rounding errors there.)

So 215 * 1.1256 * (1-.345) = 158.5m, up from 153m.


This I agree with whole heartedly a supplemental screening tengu with 2x LSE and rigs should be much closer to 300 than 200 sig. I don't personally mind huge EHP T3s infact I think they should be capable of it with the right compromises - but they should always have to make a choice between sig/mobility or tank.

Soldarius wrote:

OTHER CHANGES.

The Adaptive Shielding Defensive Subsystem is completely out-classed by the Supplemental Screening Subsystem in every way except the bonus to remote shield reps. I've literally never seen one used outside of AT. So reducing the sigRad on that is pretty much pointless. But I'm sure TEST's T3 tinker pilot will thank you for the buff to his XLASB tanking ability come this summer.

Warfare Subprocessor increase in sigRad means easier to scan down in his safe. Ok. Makes sense.


My old corp used to use RR tengus quite a bit for PVE in wormholes, etc. and there were some bigger wormhole entities who used them en mass in various PVP doctrines back in the day - I've not seen it used as much in k-space though.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2015-02-25 23:24:02 UTC
Now just take away sentry drones from anything smaller than a battleship, and we might actually have subcapitals balanced to an acceptable level.

Oh, and never not nerf Caldari.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#36 - 2015-02-25 23:32:08 UTC
At least these changes don't nerf what I use it for.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-02-25 23:34:19 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

SIGRAD.

+8m sigRad. Pathetic. With 2x LSE IIs, this will up its sigRad from 207 to 215. Throw on those 3x CDFE IIs (stacking penalized at 5% per rig) currently gives 233m, a 12.56 % increase overall. Max mindlinked Claymore links reduces that by 34.5% to 153m. (There may be some rounding errors there.)

So 215 * 1.1256 * (1-.345) = 158.5m, up from 153m.


This I agree with whole heartedly a supplemental screening tengu with 2x LSE and rigs should be much closer to 300 than 200 sig. I don't personally mind huge EHP T3s infact I think they should be capable of it with the right compromises - but they should always have to make a choice between sig/mobility or tank.

Soldarius wrote:

OTHER CHANGES.

The Adaptive Shielding Defensive Subsystem is completely out-classed by the Supplemental Screening Subsystem in every way except the bonus to remote shield reps. I've literally never seen one used outside of AT. So reducing the sigRad on that is pretty much pointless. But I'm sure TEST's T3 tinker pilot will thank you for the buff to his XLASB tanking ability come this summer.

Warfare Subprocessor increase in sigRad means easier to scan down in his safe. Ok. Makes sense.


My old corp used to use RR tengus quite a bit for PVE in wormholes, etc. and there were some bigger wormhole entities who used them en mass in various PVP doctrines back in the day - I've not seen it used as much in k-space though.

I cant wait for minimum wormhole siege times in C5's and C6's to double because you now have to squeeze 7-8 times more mass through a wormhole for the same offensive capabilities.

cant wait for the other T3's to get their nerf bat so that armor is completely invalidated in wormholes (because lets face it, the only time you put an armor battleship through a wormhole is if you are TRYING to close it, not go for pvp)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#38 - 2015-02-25 23:43:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'm 14 days from Tengu.

14 days ago, I said to myself "I'm going to trigger a Tengu nerf by training for them".

Seriously, I thought this. I was right.

If you all knew my other thoughts and how right I was in various RL issues you'd lose sleep.

For the most part, I think this nerf is directed at the Russians. CCP why do you hate Russians?


Tengu is like the Drake: Space herpes. Why did you choose to get space herpes?




Bug chasing I guess. At 85M SP I'm running out of stuff to train for. Cool


Please start training for all supers.




Hmmmm Does my name come up in any Eve prophecies? I better check before I do that.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#39 - 2015-02-25 23:48:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Now just take away sentry drones from anything smaller than a battleship, and we might actually have subcapitals balanced to an acceptable level.

Oh, and never not nerf Caldari.



I have fielded the idea long ago that ships should require a Drone Bay fitting, like a module or "drone bay slot" whereby there would be small, medium, large, and I guess extra large and then the drone bays could align right into ship sizes (small, medium, large, capital) but let larger ships field multiple smaller bays as total space would allow.


Once upon a time a missile launcher could launch any kind of missile and that had to change, though cruise missiles in frigate fights where you could outrun them was entertaining.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#40 - 2015-02-26 00:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

cant wait for the other T3's to get their nerf bat so that armor is completely invalidated in wormholes (because lets face it, the only time you put an armor battleship through a wormhole is if you are TRYING to close it, not go for pvp)


BS don't tend to get used much for general roles in PVP due to the mass constraints and in higher classes if someone drops a dread or 2 you need a fairly decent fit to keep them alive. Nestors, Bhaalgorns and Vindicators do get used for wormhole PVP fairly frequently.

There are 1-2 groups (IIRC TL when they existed used it a fair bit) that had a baddon/guardian doctrine for POS bashes.

Nerfing T3s into the ground would do nothing good for wormhole PVP.

EDIT: Infact the most fun I've had in this game came thanks to T3s - dropping triage and ~15 T3s out a wh with their big enough tanks/resists to weather a storm and have a null group drop their 100+ man BC/BS home defence fleet is a blast win or lose.