These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Assembly Hall

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Increase Jump Freighter range
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-02-24 00:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Jump fatigue is supposed to cripple the projection of large coalitions, but the logistics nightmare hurts the small guys more than anyone else.

Large coalitions have enough jf pilots, and hold enough stations to still get supplies anywhere they need through brute force. The small guys are the ones getting boned. How are they supposed to hold ground when they can't supply themselves? JF range should be increased to jump past blockades of hostile stations, so the little guys can have a chance at supplying and holding small patches of remote systems.
Anthar Thebess
#2 - 2015-02-24 14:35:30 UTC
Final range of jump freighter will be reduced to 5 LY.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#3 - 2015-02-24 17:38:32 UTC
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-02-24 19:34:30 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-02-24 21:42:38 UTC
any benefit to smaller entities is a greater benefit to larger ones, and with logistics, either with logi or supply chains, being exponential force factors, increasing JF range helps the bigger guys against the littler ones at an order of magnitude more.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-02-24 23:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
any benefit to smaller entities is a greater benefit to larger ones, and with logistics, either with logi or supply chains, being exponential force factors, increasing JF range helps the bigger guys against the littler ones at an order of magnitude more.


sabre906 wrote:
JF range should be increased to jump past blockades of hostile stations, so the little guys can have a chance at supplying and holding small patches of remote systems.


sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.


The bottom line for small entities = possible vs impossible to hold space.

The bottom line for large entities = the amount of jf pilot put to work, no difference in end result.

What you don't realize:
Large entities can blockade small ones by cutting off jump freighter supply routes, because they have lots of space. A jf range increase will allow small entities to supply themselves past these blockades. You can't move titans/moms/dreads/carriers via jump freighter anyway.

Projection of major power blocks has nothing to do with jfs moving your daily supplies, it has to do with titans and moms moving across the map.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#7 - 2015-02-25 03:52:10 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.

That makes absolutely no sense since there are plenty of other ways of cutting off jump freighters that have nothing to do with range.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-25 04:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Lykouleon wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.

That makes absolutely no sense since there are plenty of other ways of cutting off jump freighters that have nothing to do with range.


No. Even a small 1 or 2 ly increase in radius can open up dozens of new routes in some cases, creating dozens of additional stations over multiple regions that will have to be held/camped to cut off logistics, erasing certain bottlenecks.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2015-02-25 13:22:10 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.

That makes absolutely no sense since there are plenty of other ways of cutting off jump freighters that have nothing to do with range.


No. Even a small 1 or 2 ly increase in radius can open up dozens of new routes in some cases, creating dozens of additional stations over multiple regions that will have to be held/camped to cut off logistics, erasing certain bottlenecks.

so then why not just remove their jump range entirely and just let them teleport to whatever system they want, because that is mroe or less what you want, risk-free logistics.

the only little guys who SHOULD be trying to settle far out are ones who see unused space by big entities and offer an alliance/defense in exchange for settlement rights, any other small entity is better off sieging and attacking off lowsec adjacent systems, as logistics and staging is infinitely easier.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-25 15:58:30 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
And how does this not then benefit larger coalitions with more jump freighter pilots who can then resupply with less brute force?


Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.

That makes absolutely no sense since there are plenty of other ways of cutting off jump freighters that have nothing to do with range.


No. Even a small 1 or 2 ly increase in radius can open up dozens of new routes in some cases, creating dozens of additional stations over multiple regions that will have to be held/camped to cut off logistics, erasing certain bottlenecks.

so then why not just remove their jump range entirely and just let them teleport to whatever system they want, because that is mroe or less what you want, risk-free logistics.

the only little guys who SHOULD be trying to settle far out are ones who see unused space by big entities and offer an alliance/defense in exchange for settlement rights, any other small entity is better off sieging and attacking off lowsec adjacent systems, as logistics and staging is infinitely easier.


In other words, you're saying small entities should either stay out of sov null or rent - what you described - low level regional defense in exchange for offsetting partial/full rent, is exactly the same as the current renter system CCP is trying to move away from.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-02-25 16:04:29 UTC
Actually, what CCP needs to do is repair the nullsec industrial complex to the point where you don't have to make JF runs every week for basic supplies.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-02-25 16:14:53 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
sabre906 wrote:

Because they can't cut you off and starve you out.

That makes absolutely no sense since there are plenty of other ways of cutting off jump freighters that have nothing to do with range.


No. Even a small 1 or 2 ly increase in radius can open up dozens of new routes in some cases, creating dozens of additional stations over multiple regions that will have to be held/camped to cut off logistics, erasing certain bottlenecks.

so then why not just remove their jump range entirely and just let them teleport to whatever system they want, because that is mroe or less what you want, risk-free logistics.

the only little guys who SHOULD be trying to settle far out are ones who see unused space by big entities and offer an alliance/defense in exchange for settlement rights, any other small entity is better off sieging and attacking off lowsec adjacent systems, as logistics and staging is infinitely easier.


In other words, you're saying small entities should either stay out of sov null or rent - what you described - low level regional defense in exchange for offsetting partial/full rent, is exactly the same as the current renter system CCP is trying to move away from.

yeah, thanks for ignoring half my post trying to act like your pulling a smart one

yes, if you want to live in the MIDDLE of an entity that is vastly larger than you, you SHOUDL be subservient, which is why the ALTERNATIVE I ORIGINALLY MENTIONED exists, and thats pushing for your own territory starting close to lowsec, so your supplies and retreat/reinforce lines are short and easily based in lowsec stations until you have enough presence and foothold to move completely into null.

this way larger more stabilized empires are pushed farther into null becoming more dependent on themselves for supplies, rather than jita, while the little guys eating at their empire grow larger and are in turn pushed farther out to own space by the new little guys harassing them in low and entry-null
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-02-25 16:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Elenahina wrote:
Actually, what CCP needs to do is repair the nullsec industrial complex to the point where you don't have to make JF runs every week for basic supplies.


I'm all for that. But that's clearly not the case currently. Everything from lack of basic minerals (null is always out of trit/pye/mexllon, distribution of these things in belts are far off for production of anything) to moon goo distribution (you'll always have to haul from highsec for missing t2 ship material unless you're a huge entity owning half of nullsec) necessitates making jf runs to highsec.

Until CCP actually does what you said, they shouldn't just pull the plug on small entities and drive them back to highsec.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-02-25 16:25:02 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:


yes, if you want to live in the MIDDLE of an entity that is vastly larger than you, you SHOUDL be subservient, which is why the ALTERNATIVE I ORIGINALLY MENTIONED exists, and thats pushing for your own territory starting close to lowsec, so your supplies and retreat/reinforce lines are short and easily based in lowsec stations until you have enough presence and foothold to move completely into null.

this way larger more stabilized empires are pushed farther into null becoming more dependent on themselves for supplies, rather than jita, while the little guys eating at their empire grow larger and are in turn pushed farther out to own space by the new little guys harassing them in low and entry-null


Do we even play the same Eve? Are you seeing any small entity pushing into null starting close to lowsec these days? You must be seeing something the rest of us can't. All we see are the big guys collecting rent from -1.0 renterland in deep null that will never change hands, and use the isk to steamroll any small entity back into lowsec.

What incentive is there for small entities to try to take worthless high traffic -0.1 space, knowing they'll just get steamrolled back before they can reach anywhere worthwhile?
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#15 - 2015-02-25 18:18:33 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Jump fatigue is supposed to cripple the projection of large coalitions


False. It's supposed to cripple projection for everyone.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-02-25 18:18:47 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:


yes, if you want to live in the MIDDLE of an entity that is vastly larger than you, you SHOUDL be subservient, which is why the ALTERNATIVE I ORIGINALLY MENTIONED exists, and thats pushing for your own territory starting close to lowsec, so your supplies and retreat/reinforce lines are short and easily based in lowsec stations until you have enough presence and foothold to move completely into null.

this way larger more stabilized empires are pushed farther into null becoming more dependent on themselves for supplies, rather than jita, while the little guys eating at their empire grow larger and are in turn pushed farther out to own space by the new little guys harassing them in low and entry-null


Do we even play the same Eve? Are you seeing any small entity pushing into null starting close to lowsec these days? You must be seeing something the rest of us can't. All we see are the big guys collecting rent from -1.0 renterland in deep null that will never change hands, and use the isk to steamroll any small entity back into lowsec.

What incentive is there for small entities to try to take worthless high traffic -0.1 space, knowing they'll just get steamrolled back before they can reach anywhere worthwhile?

Do I see any? no. Why? Because none even want to try. most people build up a good 100-150 man alliance theyd need to start pushing, and decide theyd rather stay and sit on their lowsec empire and not get risky.

as far as "have any" yeah, there are several alliances with only 1 or 2 systems that have held SOV, mostly because they dotn go after "crown jewel" or main trade-pipe systems that are still necessary lifelines of big blocs (in other words, they avoid intentionally drawing all out war with a big entity)

and besides, the entire point of SOV going forward is to make it easier for little groups to pick away at the big ones, and if anything CCP will be nerfing JF range as they stated when they nerfed it originally, that it was a placeholder so nullsec groups didnt collapse overnight logistically (though to be honest, woulda been a better shakeup if they had just gone ahead with the planned nerf instead of post-poning it)
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-02-25 18:31:38 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:


yes, if you want to live in the MIDDLE of an entity that is vastly larger than you, you SHOUDL be subservient, which is why the ALTERNATIVE I ORIGINALLY MENTIONED exists, and thats pushing for your own territory starting close to lowsec, so your supplies and retreat/reinforce lines are short and easily based in lowsec stations until you have enough presence and foothold to move completely into null.

this way larger more stabilized empires are pushed farther into null becoming more dependent on themselves for supplies, rather than jita, while the little guys eating at their empire grow larger and are in turn pushed farther out to own space by the new little guys harassing them in low and entry-null


Do we even play the same Eve? Are you seeing any small entity pushing into null starting close to lowsec these days? You must be seeing something the rest of us can't. All we see are the big guys collecting rent from -1.0 renterland in deep null that will never change hands, and use the isk to steamroll any small entity back into lowsec.

What incentive is there for small entities to try to take worthless high traffic -0.1 space, knowing they'll just get steamrolled back before they can reach anywhere worthwhile?

Do I see any? no. Why? Because none even want to try. most people build up a good 100-150 man alliance theyd need to start pushing, and decide theyd rather stay and sit on their lowsec empire and not get risky.

as far as "have any" yeah, there are several alliances with only 1 or 2 systems that have held SOV, mostly because they dotn go after "crown jewel" or main trade-pipe systems that are still necessary lifelines of big blocs (in other words, they avoid intentionally drawing all out war with a big entity)

and besides, the entire point of SOV going forward is to make it easier for little groups to pick away at the big ones, and if anything CCP will be nerfing JF range as they stated when they nerfed it originally, that it was a placeholder so nullsec groups didnt collapse overnight logistically (though to be honest, woulda been a better shakeup if they had just gone ahead with the planned nerf instead of post-poning it)


Hate to break it to you, but your 100 man fleet will get rolled by supers, funded not by moon goo these days, but by deep null renter space whose sov will never be challenged.

Renters kill rats for isk -> pay rent -> coalitions use the isk to roll the small guys. Powerblocks will never have trouble with logistics so long as they have isk printing machine that is deep null renterland. Their renters need minimal hauling because all they do is rat. The small guys that actually want to take sov are the ones that need logistics to replace ship losses.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-02-25 20:17:55 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Actually, what CCP needs to do is repair the nullsec industrial complex to the point where you don't have to make JF runs every week for basic supplies.


I'm all for that. But that's clearly not the case currently. Everything from lack of basic minerals (null is always out of trit/pye/mexllon, distribution of these things in belts are far off for production of anything) to moon goo distribution (you'll always have to haul from highsec for missing t2 ship material unless you're a huge entity owning half of nullsec) necessitates making jf runs to highsec.

Until CCP actually does what you said, they shouldn't just pull the plug on small entities and drive them back to highsec.


Than rather than asking for a band aid, champion an actual solution to the problem that doesn't screw over the rest of the game in the process. See past the end of your own nose and take a look at the larger picture.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-25 21:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Elenahina wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Actually, what CCP needs to do is repair the nullsec industrial complex to the point where you don't have to make JF runs every week for basic supplies.


I'm all for that. But that's clearly not the case currently. Everything from lack of basic minerals (null is always out of trit/pye/mexllon, distribution of these things in belts are far off for production of anything) to moon goo distribution (you'll always have to haul from highsec for missing t2 ship material unless you're a huge entity owning half of nullsec) necessitates making jf runs to highsec.

Until CCP actually does what you said, they shouldn't just pull the plug on small entities and drive them back to highsec.


Than rather than asking for a band aid, champion an actual solution to the problem that doesn't screw over the rest of the game in the process. See past the end of your own nose and take a look at the larger picture.


No, that's asking for not pulling the plug on the small guys and driving them back to highsec before your "solution" is implemented soon^tm

Jf is the lifeline for these small guys. Until this changes, their lifeline should not be cut, to the benefit of large powerblocks.
Iain Cariaba
#20 - 2015-02-25 22:30:05 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:


yes, if you want to live in the MIDDLE of an entity that is vastly larger than you, you SHOUDL be subservient, which is why the ALTERNATIVE I ORIGINALLY MENTIONED exists, and thats pushing for your own territory starting close to lowsec, so your supplies and retreat/reinforce lines are short and easily based in lowsec stations until you have enough presence and foothold to move completely into null.

this way larger more stabilized empires are pushed farther into null becoming more dependent on themselves for supplies, rather than jita, while the little guys eating at their empire grow larger and are in turn pushed farther out to own space by the new little guys harassing them in low and entry-null


Do we even play the same Eve? Are you seeing any small entity pushing into null starting close to lowsec these days? You must be seeing something the rest of us can't. All we see are the big guys collecting rent from -1.0 renterland in deep null that will never change hands, and use the isk to steamroll any small entity back into lowsec.

What incentive is there for small entities to try to take worthless high traffic -0.1 space, knowing they'll just get steamrolled back before they can reach anywhere worthwhile?

Do I see any? no. Why? Because none even want to try. most people build up a good 100-150 man alliance theyd need to start pushing, and decide theyd rather stay and sit on their lowsec empire and not get risky.

as far as "have any" yeah, there are several alliances with only 1 or 2 systems that have held SOV, mostly because they dotn go after "crown jewel" or main trade-pipe systems that are still necessary lifelines of big blocs (in other words, they avoid intentionally drawing all out war with a big entity)

and besides, the entire point of SOV going forward is to make it easier for little groups to pick away at the big ones, and if anything CCP will be nerfing JF range as they stated when they nerfed it originally, that it was a placeholder so nullsec groups didnt collapse overnight logistically (though to be honest, woulda been a better shakeup if they had just gone ahead with the planned nerf instead of post-poning it)


Hate to break it to you, but your 100 man fleet will get rolled by supers, funded not by moon goo these days, but by deep null renter space whose sov will never be challenged.

Renters kill rats for isk -> pay rent -> coalitions use the isk to roll the small guys. Powerblocks will never have trouble with logistics so long as they have isk printing machine that is deep null renterland. Their renters need minimal hauling because all they do is rat. The small guys that actually want to take sov are the ones that need logistics to replace ship losses.

Which is a totally seperate problem than jump freighters. I'll point out something you seem to have missed the two times it was mentioned: CCP wants to reduce JF jump ranges to 5ly like every other capital ship. With that in mind, what do you honestly think of the chances they're going to do the opposite and implement your idea?
12Next page