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Gallente Redesign
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Alara IonStorm
#121 - 2011-12-21 15:26:21 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Kingwood wrote:
This thread is amazing. Lol

My thread was hijacked!

The Crazy has it and you are not getting it back.
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#122 - 2011-12-21 15:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Kingwood wrote:
This thread is amazing. Lol

My thread was hijacked!

The Crazy has it and you are not getting it back.


I'm pretty sure the same crap has been copied pasted in like 3 other threads. I would love to see someone make an argument without using the Deimos or Vagabond. Or how about make a point without comparing Gallente to another race. There's a challenge.

So much for me trying to instigate change for the good, no wonder a dev hasn't posted in this thread. So i'm going to make another post about improving information warfare and the Eos, seeing how I'm the only one who seems to care about it.

Another look what I found:


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=47251&p=7

Quote:
#121Posted: 2011.12.20 19:51 | Report
Like
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.



Does this sound familiar. I mean really, do we need you all arguing in two different threads about the same damn topic. GO MAKE YOUR OWN! I'm pretty sure anyone of you could go resurrect the Vaga vs Deimos thread.
Goose99
#123 - 2011-12-21 16:07:29 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
Kingwood wrote:
This thread is amazing. Lol

My thread was hijacked!

The Crazy has it and you are not getting it back.


I'm pretty sure the same crap has been copied pasted in like 3 other threads. I would love to see someone make an argument without using the Deimos or Vagabond. Or how about make a point without comparing Gallente to another race. There's a challenge.

So much for me trying to instigate change for the good, no wonder a dev hasn't posted in this thread. So i'm going to make another post about improving information warfare and the Eos, seeing how I'm the only one who seems to care about it.

Another look what I found:


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=47251&p=7

Quote:
#121Posted: 2011.12.20 19:51 | Report
Like
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.



Does this sound familiar. I mean really, do we need you all arguing in two different threads about the same damn topic. GO MAKE YOUR OWN! I'm pretty sure anyone of you could go resurrect the Vaga vs Deimos thread.


Hey, Liang's the one that started with Vaga vs Deimos, and kept it up. He even made a wall of text dedicated to it in his blog. Why would anyone argue Diemost's better vs Vaga? Who knows. I suspect a degree of masochism comes into play. Regardless, it's pretty illustrative of the state of Winmatar and Gallante.Cool

Oh, and no one cares about Eos. Lol@ gallante ganglinks.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#124 - 2011-12-21 16:36:06 UTC
The Vagabond actually sucks anyway it's completely ouclassed by the Cynabal for long range and the SFI for short range, whereas the Ishtar is both better than the Vaga and can actually do things that the Gallente faction cruisers cannot.

OH SNAP

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2011-12-21 16:48:08 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
The Vagabond actually sucks anyway it's completely ouclassed by the Cynabal for long range and the SFI for short range, whereas the Ishtar is both better than the Vaga and can actually do things that the Gallente faction cruisers cannot.

OH SNAP

so there is the deimos which is outclassed by the vaga which is outclassed by the cyna
and how come a drone boat into this i dunno , must be the way matard's brain works or actually does not work :P
gogo nerfmatar
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2011-12-21 17:41:58 UTC
the Ishtar is actually outclassed by the nano shield Gila in every way, in pvp. i only use my ishtar for plex running.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#127 - 2011-12-21 20:16:38 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Well, in a 1vs1 it´s not that a big issue, that´s right, the opponent would need to be a class bigger to really hurt you this way. But it is getting more effective with more people. I´ve seen small gang fights where the proper use of neuts meant neutralizing the enemies firepower twice as fast because when working together additionally to destroying ships they kept other opponents capped out. Not permanently perhaps, but it certainly gave them an advantage.
...
I never stated that utility highs are something like a magic key for close combat, just something that can come in quite handy often and can -especially when used in gangs- cause major headaches for the enemies. More would be too much.


Utility highs will always take a distant back seat in a straight up damage and tank in a brawl. TBH, I think you'd focus better on RR BS setups if you want to extol the virtues of utility highs.

Quote:
I left EHP and DPS out because those aren´t really basic design characteristics.


notsureifsrs.jpg

Quote:

Your answer why the Gallente are especially suited for close combat is unsatisfactory. You have not stated a single point of the basic design that is supporting close combat.
Well, to be fair, it doesn´t exist, so it would be impossible for you. The Gallente do not have even one characteristic available only to them that makes them suited for close combat.


Well when you start making stupid comments about how DPS and tank are secondary design characteristics. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#128 - 2011-12-21 20:19:43 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Hey, Liang's the one that started with Vaga vs Deimos, and kept it up. He even made a wall of text dedicated to it in his blog. Why would anyone argue Diemost's better vs Vaga? Who knows. I suspect a degree of masochism comes into play. Regardless, it's pretty illustrative of the state of Winmatar and Gallante.Cool

Oh, and no one cares about Eos. Lol@ gallante ganglinks.


No, you started with the Vaga vs Deimos and I wrote a blog post about how the situation isn't nearly as dire as it might seem at first. You've since kept up an attempted Proof By Assertion...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2011-12-22 03:03:35 UTC
Everyone keeps complaining that Gallente needs to be buffed and the two arguments that they keep using seem to be the Deimos vs Vagabond and the Brutix vs Hurricane.

OK, so here's the plan.... everyone now should compare the Tempest vs Megathron and the Ishtar vs Munin.

Personally, I think that the Megathron has the advantage over the Tempest. With similar armor setups the Tempest has 106k ehp and puts out 800 dps while the Megathron has 120k ehp and puts out 1190 dps. This is of course using short range ammo on both of them. Faction. The Tempest would have a slight advantage being able to use 2 heavy neuts to the Throns 1 heavy neut. Luckily the Thons heavy neut can neut at lr point range which the Tempest would probably be using since it can also use 2 webs. This fight would entirely depend on the Tempest being able to keep enough range, however, since their speed difference is only about 10m/s, it would also entirely depend on where the fight started at. If at range, the thron would easily be able to get out of point range considering the close speed range, if at close range, the thron would **** the Tempest with much higher dps, tracking, and a scram to shut off the mwd.

Person opinion of course.

I'll let someone else go over the Munin vs Ishtar. Since I can't think of their stats off hand at work.
Goose99
#130 - 2011-12-22 03:10:12 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Everyone keeps complaining that Gallente needs to be buffed and the two arguments that they keep using seem to be the Deimos vs Vagabond and the Brutix vs Hurricane.

OK, so here's the plan.... everyone now should compare the Tempest vs Megathron and the Ishtar vs Munin.

Personally, I think that the Megathron has the advantage over the Tempest. With similar armor setups the Tempest has 106k ehp and puts out 800 dps while the Megathron has 120k ehp and puts out 1190 dps. This is of course using short range ammo on both of them. Faction. The Tempest would have a slight advantage being able to use 2 heavy neuts to the Throns 1 heavy neut. Luckily the Thons heavy neut can neut at lr point range which the Tempest would probably be using since it can also use 2 webs. This fight would entirely depend on the Tempest being able to keep enough range, however, since their speed difference is only about 10m/s, it would also entirely depend on where the fight started at. If at range, the thron would easily be able to get out of point range considering the close speed range, if at close range, the thron would **** the Tempest with much higher dps, tracking, and a scram to shut off the mwd.

Person opinion of course.

I'll let someone else go over the Munin vs Ishtar. Since I can't think of their stats off hand at work.


No. Let us compare an Elephant vs Santa Claus.Lol
Alara IonStorm
#131 - 2011-12-22 03:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
ElCholo wrote:
With similar armor setups

Armor Tempests are rare. There are much heavier Armor Ships out there and you want to take advantage of Minmatar Speed.

Now days they are Shield Nano Autocannon fit like a Big Cane for Skirmishing, In Fleets Shield Artillery Fit in a with 1400mm Cannons for Alpha.

Though the Maelstrom is the preferred Fleet Arty Minmatar Battleship choice the Tempest still sees heavy use.

Goose99 wrote:

No. Let us compare an Elephant vs Santa Claus.Lol

Santa would Kite the Elephant around in his Sleigh and throw presents. The Elephant will swat them away with his trunk.

That was a fun thought.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2011-12-22 04:02:34 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
With similar armor setups

Armor Tempests are rare. There are much heavier Armor Ships out there and you want to take advantage of Minmatar Speed.

Now days they are Shield Nano Autocannon fit like a Big Cane for Skirmishing, In Fleets Shield Artillery Fit in a with 1400mm Cannons for Alpha.

Though the Maelstrom is the preferred Fleet Arty Minmatar Battleship choice the Tempest still sees heavy use.


While I disagree that the Armor Pest is rare, feel free to compare the Shield Pest to the Megathron in whatever way that you like. I'm just trying to keep the comparisons at same tier so people don't whine about tiers not being matched, etc...
Goose99
#133 - 2011-12-22 05:15:37 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
With similar armor setups

Armor Tempests are rare. There are much heavier Armor Ships out there and you want to take advantage of Minmatar Speed.

Now days they are Shield Nano Autocannon fit like a Big Cane for Skirmishing, In Fleets Shield Artillery Fit in a with 1400mm Cannons for Alpha.

Though the Maelstrom is the preferred Fleet Arty Minmatar Battleship choice the Tempest still sees heavy use.


While I disagree that the Armor Pest is rare, feel free to compare the Shield Pest to the Megathron in whatever way that you like. I'm just trying to keep the comparisons at same tier so people don't whine about tiers not being matched, etc...


Or, you can compare ships of the same tier that are actually used outside of station games and the blob. You know, bc and cruiser sized hulls.P
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2011-12-22 07:22:40 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Or, you can compare ships of the same tier that are actually used outside of station games and the blob. You know, bc and cruiser sized hulls.P


Because nobody flies Battleships in 0.0 unless in a Blob.... Roll
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#135 - 2011-12-22 10:32:09 UTC
Its not all nurf Minmatar for me but, there ships do not look like they could handle the multy-vector thrust that they display in game any way. They should give some agility to Gallente


RACE ...... SPEED/AGILITY ........ TANK ........ RANGE ....... damage

Caldari ..... poor/ok ............ shield-strong ............ mid-long ....... low-mid

Minmatar ..... best/best .... shield-ok-mid/armor-ok ... short-mid ..... high

Galente ..... ok/poor .... shield-ok /armor-ok-mid .... short-mid ..... high

Ammar .... worst/worst ........... armor-strong ..... mid-long ..... low-mid


Thats the rough brake down in just "dogma" and a few tier to teir comparisons

-Gallente have to chouse between tank and speed, and suffer some of the worst agility in the game because they have such high mass and the effect of some armor mods

-Minmatars out dated contrast to Ammar in regard to speed&agility is unneeded, It looks nice and balanced on paper but in reality the speed alone is enough just because of how slow Ammar are.

-As you can see this is less about nurf-Minmatar/Buff-Gallente and more about giving every race a piece of the pie! and some thing that they can bring to the table and excell at.

-As I've stated before I think the right move is to make the Gallente the "Agility race" they should keep orbits tight to deliver the most DPS. They should aline in-to and out-of fights fast, to rapidly reposition. Let Minmatar be the-chance/stay on/flee race and the Gallente be the-warp to/warp past/warp from race!!

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Cheshire Katt
Pyramid Celestial
#136 - 2011-12-22 13:22:10 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Its not all nurf Minmatar for me but, there ships do not look like they could handle the multy-vector thrust that they display in game any way. They should give some agility to Gallente


RACE ...... SPEED/AGILITY ........ TANK ........ RANGE ....... damage

Caldari ..... poor/ok ............ shield-strong ............ mid-long ....... low-mid

Minmatar ..... best/best .... shield-ok-mid/armor-ok ... short-mid ..... high

Galente ..... ok/poor .... shield-ok /armor-ok-mid .... short-mid ..... high

Ammar .... worst/worst ........... armor-strong ..... mid-long ..... low-mid


Thats the rough brake down in just "dogma" and a few tier to teir comparisons

-Gallente have to chouse between tank and speed, and suffer some of the worst agility in the game because they have such high mass and the effect of some armor mods

-Minmatars out dated contrast to Ammar in regard to speed&agility is unneeded, It looks nice and balanced on paper but in reality the speed alone is enough just because of how slow Ammar are.

-As you can see this is less about nurf-Minmatar/Buff-Gallente and more about giving every race a piece of the pie! and some thing that they can bring to the table and excell at.

-As I've stated before I think the right move is to make the Gallente the "Agility race" they should keep orbits tight to deliver the most DPS. They should aline in-to and out-of fights fast, to rapidly reposition. Let Minmatar be the-chance/stay on/flee race and the Gallente be the-warp to/warp past/warp from race!!


Unfortunately you are quite wrong in your little summary of the races. You are actually very off on almost every one. Minmatar actually has the lowest damage profile of all of the races. Don't believe me? Look at the weapons compared to the other races weapons. Too lazy? Meh, your choice to remain ignorant of the facts.

Just a quick comparison for ships speed and agility. Unfit Domi 136m/s align 11.9, Unfit Typhoon 163m/s 11.8, Unfit Scorpion 118m/s align 11.8, Unfit Armageddon 131m/s 13.2.

Minmatar is fastest, Gallente is second fastest, Amarr is third fastest, and Caldari is slowest. Caldari and Minmatar are tied for aligning fastest, Gallente aligns .1 seconds slower, and Amarr aligns the slowest.

Hurricane 206m/s align 8.6, Myrmidon 181m/s align 9.1, Drake 175m/s align 8.6, Harbinger 181m/s align 9.3.

Minmatar is fastest, Gallente and Amarr are tied for second fastest, Caldari is slowest. Caldari and Minmatar are tied for aligned for fastest align time again, Gallente aligns second fastest, and Amarr is slowest again.

Maybe you should put your blasters on a Caldari boat. They have the turning speed of Minmatar it seems like, and with shield tanks.... you don't have to worry about the armor penalty!!!

Won't bother going to the rest of them. It's too much effort and I really think you are just trolling or whining to get Gallente to be the win machine it used to be. Anyone remember the nano-nos-domi? *shiver*
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#137 - 2011-12-22 14:02:01 UTC
Gallente ships are actually pretty fast overall, especially after Crucible. But nobody seems to believe it :/
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2011-12-22 14:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Cheshire Katt wrote:


Maybe you should put your blasters on a Caldari boat. They have the turning speed of Minmatar it seems like, and with shield tanks.... you don't have to worry about the armor penalty!!!



oh noo ... blasters on caldari total fail
his only mistake was amarr speed is as good as gall deimos 208mps zealot 209mps eagle 164 rofl ...

so it is

RACE ...... SPEED/AGILITY ........ TANK ........ RANGE ....... damage....... utility.... fitting

Caldari ..... poor/ok ............ shield-mid............ mid-long ....... low-low...... nonexistent.... crap

Minmatar ..... imba/best .... shield-ok-mid/armor-ok ... short-long ..... mid-high....imba....dumbproof

Galente ..... ok/ok .... shield-weak /armor-ok-mid .... short-mid ..... high.....ok......hard

Ammar .... ok/worst ........... armor-strong ..... mid-long ..... mid-high......weak.......average


all considered we have the imba winmatard , the fineish amarr (scorch is the only over the top thing), and 2 races which are broken and only have 2-3 worthy ships
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#139 - 2011-12-22 14:20:50 UTC
Quote:
dumbproof


Sadly minmatar ships aren't really this.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2011-12-22 14:51:57 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Quote:
dumbproof


Sadly minmatar ships aren't really this.


fitting them is so easy , you can fit whatever gun you want mwd dmg mods point some buffer items and even have a little for a neut or 2 , what else do you need?