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Margin Trading Adjustment
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Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-12-21 13:49:22 UTC
In an effort to reduce the amount of "OMG SOMEONE HACKED THE MARKET TO REMOVE THEIR BUY ORDER" forum posts in market discussion I am going to propose the following change.

This change will not affect the way margin trading works what so ever, it will just make it impossible to place unfillable orders.

This super easy fix is this:

Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.

So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000.
Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow.
But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million.
At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.

This gets rid of the exploit (and come on that's all it really is, exploiting a loop hole in a skill in order to prey on the greedy and stupid. Which while justified does not improve the game at all), and it does not hinder the valid use of this skill to traders.


That is all I have to say.

Cheers.
Zylawy
Z3 Inc.
#2 - 2011-12-21 13:57:40 UTC
That would not work, since they can still give that isk away to a corp mate, or alt account.

The only fix would be to throw them into the negative. now THAT would be awesome. and the only reason is because they would have to sell to buy orders... lol they would not be able to pay for the broker fees to putting something on the market.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-12-21 14:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Srioghal moDhream
Give what isk away?

All the isk for the minimum amount required is in escrow. The player cannot touch that. Therefore the order can be filled.


edit:
Up to the minimum amount. This way there is little to no money to make off it.
Zylawy
Z3 Inc.
#4 - 2011-12-21 14:25:05 UTC
So then the other 5000 just sit on the market doing nothing?

So we will have a ton of orders no one can sell to? I see that one being a bigger pain, and I can see a lot of other scams that would happen with that idea.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-21 14:31:40 UTC
To be frank, if you're greedy and/or stupid enough to fall for this scam, you got what you deserved.

Caveat venditor.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-12-21 14:45:43 UTC
Actually there won't. Since it will no longer be profitable people won't do it any more.

And if they do those 5000 will go away just like they do now. The only difference is that the scammer won't make any isk off of it.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#7 - 2011-12-21 15:31:10 UTC
Simple solution any failed order placed with Escrow results in a loss of a level of the skill associated with it.
Zylawy
Z3 Inc.
#8 - 2011-12-21 18:03:29 UTC
Negative wallet would be better.... lol. that way they pay the price that they are asking and will have to get isk elsewhere or dump what they have to buy orders.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-12-21 18:44:37 UTC
Negative balance just means deleted characters.
Make it so you cannot delete negative wallet characters off your account, or make all characters on an account share a wallet then maybe.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-12-21 19:30:13 UTC
Srioghal moDhream wrote:
Negative balance just means deleted characters.
Make it so you cannot delete negative wallet characters off your account, or make all characters on an account share a wallet then maybe.


Worse, it means creating the ability to spawn massive amounts of ISK from nothing, meaning you fixed a minor scam/issue in the market by creating a game breaking exploit.
Cendres Ange
Frontier Venture
#11 - 2011-12-21 19:31:57 UTC
This game is all about PvP, no part of the game shold be safe in that regard.You can get sucideganked, tricked into a trap, have ppl warp in on you while you are on missions. why should the market be any different? you can avoid falling for theese scams with some knowledge or experience. I dont whine on the forums when I lose a ship deu to poor skills on my end.

Improve sorting of orders

Custom window presets
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-12-21 20:08:14 UTC
Margin Trading skill needs to be fixed. Period...thats one of the biggest exploits in the game. I'm all for EVE being brutal, but at least give me a chance to see if its a scam. I mean some of the scams can be obvious, but some aren't, and this hurts REAL margin traders, the one the skill was actually made for.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2011-12-22 00:10:17 UTC

This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,

And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.

I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...

Hence, this is not a solution.

The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2011-12-22 00:44:16 UTC
Guyes, there's a great way to avoid these scams.

Train 'Common Sense' to I
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-12-22 00:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Von Sydow
How about buy orders were the buyer does not have enough isk are marked in red/yellow/orange?
Maybe different colors depending on how many % of the required isk the buyer lacks, yellow for +25%, orange for +50% and red for +75%

that way we wont need to change the skill but the scams will be pretty damn obvious.


so for example, buy order is for 10000 tech, 100k each , buyer has about 450mil isk so he lacks 550 mil isk, 55% of the total buy order which in turn will make his buy order marked with orange text.
Goose99
#16 - 2011-12-22 01:31:55 UTC
Remove margin trading. Don't got the isk, don't trade.Cool
Jask Avan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-12-22 03:22:52 UTC
As a poor dumb noob, what exactly is the scam here?
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-12-22 05:03:32 UTC
Jask Avan wrote:
As a poor dumb noob, what exactly is the scam here?


Essentially it goes like this:

I put up a buy order for something stupid, like Widgets for a ridiculously high price, with a minimum quantity of say 500000

I then put up a sell order for the same item, in the same quantity for a lower sale price, but slightly higher than market average.
Finally, I empty my wallet of all ISK - this is important, because it keeps the buy order from completing.

Some greedy dumbass sees my buy order, and then notices my sell order and says whoa, I can make a **** ton of cash really easily. This should be clue number 1 in Eve. If it seems to good to be true, it IS too good to be true.

Anyway, they buy my items, I get their ISK, they try and fill my buy order hoping to make tons of cash and it fails because I don't have the ISk to cover it. So they have a bunch of crap they can't sell for a profit and I have the ISK they spent buying it, assuming I did the scam correctly.

Avoiding it isn't hard, but it does take a bit of research that greedy dabblers in trading generally don't spend the time to do.

It is not, however, an exploit as so many would like you to believe. It's perfectly legitimate game play.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-12-22 15:26:52 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,

And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.

I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...

Hence, this is not a solution.

The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...



This broke my idea.

:(
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#20 - 2011-12-22 17:29:16 UTC
Srioghal moDhream wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,

And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.

I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...

Hence, this is not a solution.

The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...



This broke my idea.

:(


sorry to burst the bubble..... It really did sound like a nice & elegant solution!
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