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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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How does one figure out te perfect orbiting range when pvping?
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Artaniss Imortalin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-12-21 20:13:57 UTC
For example say I have t2 AC's and republic fleet emp and barrage ammo which do I use and when and at what orbit should I be? Please enlighten me. Thanks... Very much a noob : Still trying to figure this all out...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#2 - 2011-12-21 20:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
The short answer is "somewhere within optimal + falloff".

the long answer depends on skills, and other factors. Since I don't have that information on hand (i.e. your skills), I can't give an exact range.

Assuming your Optimal is 10km and falloff is 20 ... you'll usually want to be somewhere between 10 and 25 KM. Closer to 10 if your tracking is good, closer to 25 if your tracking is poor).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2011-12-21 21:07:14 UTC
-add angular velocity to overview columns
-drop a can
-orbit can and just watch what the angular says
-compare to rad/s of your gun's tracking
-adjust orbit distance as necessary

If the resulting distance is too far out of range then try to find a compromise between the two.

And remember that when doing the orbit test to take the fact that you'll be using any prop mods into account.

Being a little into falloff is good as at that range you still have 90-70% accuracy while having a decently slow angular. Too far out and having a near 0 angular won't help if you still can't hit it xD

P.S. Don't forget that your speed means that your orbit will probably never match exactly the distance you gave it.

The Drake is a Lie
Liam Mirren
#4 - 2011-12-21 21:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
First of all, only orbit if your tracking (combination of degrees/sec and sig radius&resolution of the target+turret for both ships) is better than the target's, otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot and putting in lots of effort to make it worse for yourself. Generally, if you go against bigger targets (cruisers and up, assuming you fly a frigate) you'll probably want to orbit at 500m but against other frigates you might, depending on ships and if you're smart about it, choose to stay at range.

It has to do with how turrets do damage and for that you need to learn about range, optimal and falloff etc. The best way to visualise (and actually play with it) is to make use of a certain option within EFT, one that most people are clueless about. Open EFT, load your ship of choice, then go to file>new dps graph. In the right white box Rclick and select both an attacker as target (can be the same ship). Now you get a graph showing you applied dps at certain ranges and you can toy with the two vector arrows to mimic both ship's relative movement.

If you then switch to T2 range ammo (Barrage for AC, Scorch for pulses and Null for hybrids) you'll find that your base dps is down but range and applied dps AT range greatly increases. You lose tracking though so it won't work too well up close, the trick is to keep people at range a bit. At, say, 5km using T2 range ammo does WAY more dps than normal short range faction ammo. Against frigates it's thus a smart tactic, if you're fitted for it, to not orbit at all but to keep at range at some 5km while having loaded range ammo. Most pilots don't bother with it and even if they had it in their cargo it'll take them WAY too long to realise that they need to switch and by that time it'll be too late (pulse users are a possible exception).

Thing is that for different weapon types and possible ship bonuses etc applied damage at range will vary per ship and fitting. So the real answer to your "what range do you need to orbit" really is "that depends on your ship and fit compared to the target's ship&fit, and you might not want to even orbit at all".

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#5 - 2011-12-21 23:41:48 UTC
Orbiting is an excellent way of keeping distance, transversal, and speed at the same time. However, it is not always appropriate. I will give you some examples of when it is.

Short range orbiting (500-1500 m):
When to use it:

  • Against turreted ships of equal size to yours, but which have poorer tracking (in general, blaster tracking > autocannon tracking >> laser tracking)
  • Against turreted ships larger than yours
  • You're a missile ship against a turreted ship; tracking doesn't hurt you, but it hurts them

When NOT to use it:

  • You're using lasers. Just don't even try it, you will be out-tracked.
  • You're a big ship against a smaller one
  • Your target is trying to get away and they are not significantly slower than you; your ship won't chase very well in orbit mode, and you might lose them


This style of orbiting is meant to make you harder to hit, while you also stay near your target. Because of the <10km range, it is most effective when you have an afterburner, warp scrambler, and possibly a stasis webifier.

Use it with blasters and autocannons. So far as the range itself, try to set it to around your optimal range, but no lower than 500m. Also keep in mind that because of the tight orbit and high speed, your ship will actually end up orbiting at a distance greater than you set it.

If you're not supposed to be orbiting at short range but are pulled into such a situation, try manually piloting to disrupt the other pilot's orbit, or burning in a straight line at top speed.

Long range orbiting (12000-30000 m):
When to use it:

  • If you have a warp disruptor and are significantly faster than your target
  • Against unguided missile ships (Rockets, HAMs, Torpedoes); the missile playing "catch-up" with you may make it run out of fuel before it gets to you
  • You're fighting a ship bigger than yourself and you may break its tracking (e.g. Vagabond vs Armageddon)

When NOT to use it:

  • Your target is anywhere near as fast as you; try "Keep at Range" instead, or burning in a desired direction
  • You have guns with poor tracking; you're better off manually piloting to keep range and still maintain a low transversal


This type of orbiting is best used to keep distance on a preferably slow target that is optimized to fight at either short range or at very long range. It is often known as "kiting", and certain ships (particularly the Imperial Navy Slicer and the Vagabond) are infamous for it.

The range on these is tricky, since being closer to the target usually means higher damage, poorer tracking, and more of a chance to be caught by a scram or web, while being farther away means lower damage, better tracking, and more of a chance of you losing them by accidentally straying outside your warp disruptor's range. It also depends on your ship's agility and how far you get slung out by the speed on the orbit. On my Vagabond, I usually set a 18 km orbit, which ends up with me orbiting at about 21 km. This gives me a 3-7 km buffer for being able to regain my control if the victim tries to escape.

Unless you're using autocannons with Barrage ammo or pulse lasers with Scorch ammo, (and sometimes even in those cases) keep your tracking in mind. Move too fast and you won't hit anything.

Anyway, that's just a "short" overview. In practice? Test it out in EFT: hit Ctrl+D to mess around with range and speed damage graphs. Then, go out in the real game and gain experience by doing.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2011-12-22 01:08:41 UTC
I generically recommend no further than optimal + 1/2 falloff so that you don't reach optimal + falloff very often.

The minimal range depends on tracking, and how fast your target is moving, i.e. with lasers and a fast target, you want to be well within optimal since lasers don't have much falloff to compensate for a target moving out of optimal, but with projectiles you have more leeway.
Capital T
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-12-22 08:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Capital T
For small fast ships, I use speed to an advantage, and orbit as close to optimal as I can, for b/c and larger I approach... and bump... I like optimal if I can get it.
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-12-23 10:38:44 UTC
Artaniss Imortalin wrote:
For example say I have t2 AC's and republic fleet emp and barrage ammo which do I use and when and at what orbit should I be? Please enlighten me. Thanks... Very much a noob : Still trying to figure this all out...


Really depends on what it is your fighting, Your ship type & A whole bunch of other factors!!

For npc's, you'll find pretty much most of us are lazy and either slow boat it about or sit still and pop them when they move into range.

Npc's are good for playing with orbit ranges though especially if you're trying to work how far (or close) you need to be to the target before your guns start hitting.


PVP is a totally different ballgame. Whilst the same principles come into play, it's another player you're going against & they - like you - don't want to lose their ship. This means you have to factor in webs, scrams, neuts, damps & all other wonderfull things before engaging!

Things you need to know about Guns in general (note this is a very basic look):


  • Tracking Speed: The higher this number, the more chance of your guns hitting a moving target
  • Optimal: Up to this distance, a chance of hitting for full damage
  • Falloff: In this range, you'll do roughly 50% damage
  • Ammo: This can change any of the above 3 by either increasing or decreasing the gun stats when loaded.


Main thing you need to understand with AC's are they operate primarily in Falloff so whatever DPS damage you see (whether that's from the fitting screen or what EFT or Pyfa says) roughly cut it in half.

Fighting in Falloff pretty much means that you'll be at a range where you can hurt them but they can't do the same to you when you're orbiting them. So recommended ammo type would be Barrage (due to the falloff bonus it gives).

All things in this game are situational so what might work well the 1st time wont the 2nd!

Best bit of advice I can give you is hop on the Test server & play about. Learn what works and what doesnt.

For the Overview, that's more down to personal preference.. I prefer trans velocity over angular whilst others don't use either!

So get experimenting & find what suits you best.


Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
Fan Shu
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-12-25 15:52:48 UTC