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Jump Bridge Fatigue: 5 minutes till you can enjoy this game
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Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-02-23 19:18:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


If I get what I want we will be reduced to just dek.

I am seriously hoping that CCP has a big sov announcement to make at Fanfest. I am also hoping it has to do with some kind of occupancy system.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#22 - 2015-02-23 19:28:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


Reina Xyaer wrote:



Actually, it's not crippling your ability to 'fight', just your ability to 'jump' (anything other than stargate travel). So you live in your Sov space, but decided to fly out to an incursion, then take some kind of jump bridge/titan back to Sov space, and you got 4 days of fatigue... well there you go. You had to make a choice between leaving your alliance Sov to run an Incursion, or being able to jump and respond to local threats more quickly.

When Jump fatigue was first announced, I was one of the naysayers. Now I see exactly what it's intent is, and why it's a good thing.


An incursion that was all of one jump outside of the region. I am talking single region travel here, or do you view holding one region as too much?


Well since I haven't done any jumping since Fatigue was implemented, I don't know how quickly fatigue accumulates, or how each hour/day of fatigue affects your jump cooldown...

so please tell me, how did you accumulate this jump fatigue?

You went to an Incursion "1 jump out of region", then... came back via? Jump bridges? How many? How FAR (across the map, light years) did you travel? Did you take several jump bridges to get out of region, accumulate some fatigue, do the incursion, and take several more back home, and accumulate the rest?

If so, I think it's working as intended, and the intent is good.

EVE nowadays = you can't travel across the galaxy easily/quicky/without consequences and/or penalties. Most of us agree that this is good.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2015-02-23 20:38:02 UTC
Reina Xyaer wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


Reina Xyaer wrote:



Actually, it's not crippling your ability to 'fight', just your ability to 'jump' (anything other than stargate travel). So you live in your Sov space, but decided to fly out to an incursion, then take some kind of jump bridge/titan back to Sov space, and you got 4 days of fatigue... well there you go. You had to make a choice between leaving your alliance Sov to run an Incursion, or being able to jump and respond to local threats more quickly.

When Jump fatigue was first announced, I was one of the naysayers. Now I see exactly what it's intent is, and why it's a good thing.


An incursion that was all of one jump outside of the region. I am talking single region travel here, or do you view holding one region as too much?


Well since I haven't done any jumping since Fatigue was implemented, I don't know how quickly fatigue accumulates, or how each hour/day of fatigue affects your jump cooldown...

so please tell me, how did you accumulate this jump fatigue?

You went to an Incursion "1 jump out of region", then... came back via? Jump bridges? How many? How FAR (across the map, light years) did you travel? Did you take several jump bridges to get out of region, accumulate some fatigue, do the incursion, and take several more back home, and accumulate the rest?

If so, I think it's working as intended, and the intent is good.

EVE nowadays = you can't travel across the galaxy easily/quicky/without consequences and/or penalties. Most of us agree that this is good.



Four bridges, to cover one region. It would have been 25 gates or so, which is pretty horrible to do in a battleship.

I don't know how many LY it was, but presumably 20+. Dek is a long region.

I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#24 - 2015-02-23 20:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Danika Princip wrote:

Four bridges, to cover one region. It would have been 25 gates or so, which is pretty horrible to do in a battleship.

I don't know how many LY it was, but presumably 20+. Dek is a long region.

I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.


So the real question is, are you attempting to get reduced JB fatigue in general to bypass restrictions and allow people to travel long distance with low fatigue if they move in small ships, or are you attempting to get reduced JB fatigue when moving within a particular region?

Cause the first is self serving by allowing your bloated empire to rapidly move troops to/from the frontlines from the back of your massive blue blob of space without needed to deal with insane fatigue.

And the second is self serving by eliminating the drawbacks of owning a region that is as spread out in LY as Dekelin is. As well as a heaping serving of the first part. Without removing the benefits of long LY spreads like difficulty to blops.

Suck it up and deal with the consequences of living in a region with long LY spreads.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2015-02-23 21:08:00 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:

Four bridges, to cover one region. It would have been 25 gates or so, which is pretty horrible to do in a battleship.

I don't know how many LY it was, but presumably 20+. Dek is a long region.

I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.


So the real question is, are you attempting to get reduced JB fatigue in general to bypass restrictions and allow people to travel long distance with low fatigue if they move in small ships, or are you attempting to get reduced JB fatigue when moving within a particular region?

Cause the first is self serving by allowing your bloated empire to rapidly move troops to/from the frontlines from the back of your massive blue blob of space without needed to deal with insane fatigue.

And the second is self serving by eliminating the drawbacks of owning a region that is as spread out in LY as Dekelin is. As well as a heaping serving of the first part. Without removing the benefits of long LY spreads like difficulty to blops.

Suck it up and deal with the consequences of living in a region with long LY spreads.



Since we just use wormholes to move fleets from our end of the galaxy down to yours, I'd say the latter.

And aren't darkness allied with NC.? As in, the guys who actually own MORE of the galaxy than the CFC, yet are, apparently, accusing us of being the bloated empire?

And don't forget, BLOPS have 8 LY range compared with 5 for everything else.
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#26 - 2015-02-23 21:16:21 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Reina Xyaer][quote=Danika Princip]


Four bridges, to cover one region. It would have been 25 gates or so, which is pretty horrible to do in a battleship.

I don't know how many LY it was, but presumably 20+. Dek is a long region.

I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.


Well then, I think this is totally reasonable. You should not be able to travel that many jumps, that much distance, in any ship (especially a battleship), to go do your PVE, if you want to be a nullsec sov holder. I think the fatigue and subsequent penalties you get from it are perfectly reasonable.

You just don't like the new system? Sorry bub.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2015-02-23 21:27:16 UTC
Reina Xyaer wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Reina Xyaer][quote=Danika Princip]


Four bridges, to cover one region. It would have been 25 gates or so, which is pretty horrible to do in a battleship.

I don't know how many LY it was, but presumably 20+. Dek is a long region.

I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.


Well then, I think this is totally reasonable. You should not be able to travel that many jumps, that much distance, in any ship (especially a battleship), to go do your PVE, if you want to be a nullsec sov holder. I think the fatigue and subsequent penalties you get from it are perfectly reasonable.

You just don't like the new system? Sorry bub.



So, how many jumps is an acceptable distance to go do some PVE, in your opinion? Do bear in mind that I was on the way home from an incursion, and it's not like anyone has any control over where those spawn. Same with escalations, the other big reason for PVE ships to travel.

If one region is too far, how far should someone be able to go?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-02-23 21:44:04 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Jump fatigue is a cool concept. It cuts down on the instant movement of entire coalitions and provides a buffer against migrations of entire capital fleets. Massive blocks now have a strategical disadvantage with relocating large groups of assets to enemy territory giving other entities the chance to defend. However, this mechanic was extended beyond the scope of what it should have been applied to.

Applying jump fatigue to jump bridge networks is useful. No longer do people have to worry about regional shifts of 300+ megathron fleets in minutes or... I can not think of another positive. This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense. It is a punishment for exploiting the perks of using your own space sov. Let's discuss an alternative that makes more sense.

Step 1: Jump Bridge Critical Mass

I just solved your problem and the fun of homeland defense still lives on. Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route (so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life) how about give jump bridges a capacity. Only so much mass (referring to ship mass) can pass through a given jump bridge for 'x' amount of time. X being no more than an hour, do not run away with this. Instead of punishing people trying to strategically respond to a small gang in their space or using quicker alternatives to pick more drones up because the rats killed off too many, punish mass movement. That is what this was trying to accomplish correct?

Step 2: Jump Bridge Reinforcement

Groups still need to defend their space by responding to large hostile forces. Not everyone has access to a titan. Allow jump bridges to have the option to be reinforced in case defensive responses are required. Apply a timer to that.

Tl;DR - Jump Bridge Fatigue is a dumb punishment for utilizing you own space. It is like giving someone hands and telling them not to play with themselves.


How many plate/armor mods should a ratting domi be allowed to have fitted while still being able to jump after losing his drones?
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#29 - 2015-02-23 21:46:02 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


So, how many jumps is an acceptable distance to go do some PVE, in your opinion? Do bear in mind that I was on the way home from an incursion, and it's not like anyone has any control over where those spawn. Same with escalations, the other big reason for PVE ships to travel.

If one region is too far, how far should someone be able to go?


First of all, this "one region" comment seems irrelevant. Regions are all different sizes, so please stop saying "one region" as if that means something.

IMO you should not be able to use jump bridges to turn 30+ gate jumps into 4 jumps, cutting your travel time down probably 80% or more, and have no penalties.

You're basically just saying that you don't like the jump fatigue system (as many did in the thread that introduced it), and I'm sorry, but CCP has decided that movement needs to be restricted, and you are suffering EXACTLY the changes that they made to accomplish that.

There's really no point to this thread, except for me to keep trying to convince you why this jump fatigue makes sense...

here's my last post in this thread, I'll try to do that:

The jump fatigue that you are directly experiencing is doing exactly what it's meant to do... make it a pain to travel long distances. CCP (and many players) want this because it makes it harder for entities to move forces across the galaxy quickly, and makes it a long term strategic decision to do it, with consequences (i.e. you can jump still jump across the galaxy, but then getting home is HARD). On the small scale, for example, you... it makes it so members of sov holding entities kind of need to LIVE and STAY in their sov systems. Now again, you don't NEED to stay, you aren't a prisoner. You can (and did) go 30 jumps to run an incursion, and you suffered a penalty for it. CCP wants to encourage you to stay in your sov area.

Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#30 - 2015-02-23 21:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Danika Princip wrote:


If one region is too far, how far should someone be able to go?

I can get from one side of my region to the entrance of Fountain in one JB.

Stop confusing the issue by measuring things in "regions" Space is measured in LY. Which you have an abundance of. Some regions are small in LY an/or # of systems , some regions are huge.

Fade has 27 systems.
Stain has 132 systems.

Tenal is all scrunched up into a close ball.

Deklein is a long straight-ish chain of systems in 3-D view.

Stop whining about how your region is so terrible because it doesn't have perfect 3d geometry for fast bridging around the region, and thus deserves changes so that you may be less inconvenienced by the placement of star systems.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#31 - 2015-02-23 22:38:18 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


I don't see why moving within one region is an issue.


In and of itself, it's not.

I agree JB's right now need some sort of adjustment, but if I'm understanding you correctly, free JBs within a region would be a horrible thing. Basically if there was no intra-region fatigue, it would just be gamed by arranging the networks such that you could get to the inter-regional gates as fast as possible. I could see super highways being built such that you could cross the map in quite short order.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-02-23 22:45:58 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Blah blah... jump fatigue... blah blah... This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense.

No. Go away. You have no idea what you are talking about. Home defense is the best source of small gang pvp in Dek.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-02-23 22:51:10 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I got four days of fatigue moving a PVE ship across one single region.

I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.


And how do you feel about wormholes? We use those to slam fleets across the galaxy faster than any JB network. Surely that's power projection that needs removing too?

If you chose to bring a capital then yes, its working as intended. Bring a subcap next time.

Wormholes aren't predictable the way that jump bridges are so they don't create the same type of problems around force projection. Force projection isn't so much of an issue when you can't control exactly when and where you can project it to.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2015-02-23 22:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Danika Princip wrote:
So, how many jumps is an acceptable distance to go do some PVE, in your opinion? Do bear in mind that I was on the way home from an incursion, and it's not like anyone has any control over where those spawn. Same with escalations, the other big reason for PVE ships to travel.

If one region is too far, how far should someone be able to go?

This is something only you can answer. The mechanics are there to get your capital around with no jump fatigue at all. The trade off between travel time and fatigue is a choice for each individual pilot to make.

Although to be honest, force projection as nerfed by jump fatigue wouldn't be such an issue if capitals and supers weren't so incredibly powerful. Dreads are pretty much OK without jump fatigue. Its the carriers and supers that cause issues.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-02-23 23:11:42 UTC
Also, four days of fatigue? Jesus Christ learn some patience. Or how the damn thing works before (ab)using it.

Your complaints are literally worse than a ganked miner.
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2015-02-25 14:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: bigbillthaboss3
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Blah blah... jump fatigue... blah blah... This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense.

No. Go away. You have no idea what you are talking about. Home defense is the best source of small gang pvp in Dek.


I think you missed my point.

Scenario: Group of six hostiles are roaming around Deklein in a group looking for some action.

I am 12 jumps away and would like to engage in some ~leet pvp~ action. Unfortunately it takes 10 minutes to travel to said point of interest and by now the hostiles have moved on. JBs provide a home field advantage that is a feature common with most... everything. I think it would be beneficial to be able to move into position like old times and participate in the actual combat features of EVE. JB fatigue made what was once a 5 minute excitment factor a now 20 minute "WELP I gotta go cook dinner now gotta dock up" type of blue ball experience. The pace of the game has been reduced to that of snail movement.


Also, in response to the "Everyone will just hop in interceptors and then hop in new battleships!" rebuttal:

1.) Who has battleships scattered in multiple systems? Maybe 10 guys, and they are all fit for making isk.
2.) What's the difference in currently using low skill required haulers to avoid fatigue penalty?
EDIT: or 3.) Blackops bridge entire gangs from system to system until final destination including ships.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-02-25 14:35:10 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:


Scenario: Group of six hostiles are roaming around Deklein in a group looking for some action.

I am 12 jumps away and would like to engage in some ~leet pvp~ action. Unfortunately it takes 10 minutes to travel to said point of interest and by now the hostiles have moved on. JBs provide a home field advantage that is a feature common with most... everything. I think it would be beneficial to be able to move into position like old times and participate in the actual combat features of EVE. JB fatigue made what was once a 5 minute excitment factor a now 20 minute "WELP I gotta go cook dinner now gotta dock up" type of blue ball experience. The pace of the game has been reduced to that of snail movement.


1- Take current jump bridge
2- make whatever number of jumps are left by gates
3- PvP excitement
4- Go cook dinner since it's been about 20 minutes by now anyway
5- Return after diner with jump CD/fatigue at 0

If you want to base your point on maybe having other things to do a few minutes after, then you have to accept this time doing "other things" will burn your CD/fatigue. If you don't have anything else to do after the PvP, getting there a few minutes faster don't really matter unless they outran you and in that case, they didn't really have time to do much in your space so it was still effectively defended.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-02-25 14:38:07 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Blah blah... jump fatigue... blah blah... This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense.

No. Go away. You have no idea what you are talking about. Home defense is the best source of small gang pvp in Dek.


I think you missed my point.

Scenario: Group of six hostiles are roaming around Deklein in a group looking for some action.

I am 12 jumps away and would like to engage in some ~leet pvp~ action. Unfortunately it takes 10 minutes to travel to said point of interest and by now the hostiles have moved on. JBs provide a home field advantage that is a feature common with most... everything. I think it would be beneficial to be able to move into position like old times and participate in the actual combat features of EVE. JB fatigue made what was once a 5 minute excitment factor a now 20 minute "WELP I gotta go cook dinner now gotta dock up" type of blue ball experience. The pace of the game has been reduced to that of snail movement.


Also, in response to the "Everyone will just hop in interceptors and then hop in new battleships!" rebuttal:

1.) Who has battleships scattered in multiple systems? Maybe 10 guys, and they are all fit for making isk.
2.) What's the difference in currently using low skill required haulers to avoid fatigue penalty?
EDIT: or 3.) Blackops bridge entire gangs from system to system until final destination including ships.

simple fix

reset all the blues nearby so that your enemies are often closer, so you dotn have to spend 10 minutes traveling to get a fight
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-02-25 15:36:29 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Blah blah... jump fatigue... blah blah... This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense.

No. Go away. You have no idea what you are talking about. Home defense is the best source of small gang pvp in Dek.


I think you missed my point.

Scenario: Group of six hostiles are roaming around Deklein in a group looking for some action.

I am 12 jumps away and would like to engage in some ~leet pvp~ action. Unfortunately it takes 10 minutes to travel to said point of interest and by now the hostiles have moved on. JBs provide a home field advantage that is a feature common with most... everything. I think it would be beneficial to be able to move into position like old times and participate in the actual combat features of EVE. JB fatigue made what was once a 5 minute excitment factor a now 20 minute "WELP I gotta go cook dinner now gotta dock up" type of blue ball experience. The pace of the game has been reduced to that of snail movement.


Also, in response to the "Everyone will just hop in interceptors and then hop in new battleships!" rebuttal:

1.) Who has battleships scattered in multiple systems? Maybe 10 guys, and they are all fit for making isk.
2.) What's the difference in currently using low skill required haulers to avoid fatigue penalty?
EDIT: or 3.) Blackops bridge entire gangs from system to system until final destination including ships.

simple fix

reset all the blues nearby so that your enemies are often closer, so you dotn have to spend 10 minutes traveling to get a fight


Or just stop using jump bridges for EVERYTHING. There's not a week went by since Phoebe I've not bridged somewhere, not a single ONE. Highest fatigue seen....under an hour.

Frankly it sounds a lot to me like you're either lazy/over-entitled and think peasant travel is beneath you or simply you've got too much space and not enough manpower.

Either way, all this serves to do is reinforce how awesome a change this has been and make me drool for the next one.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-02-25 15:43:04 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
I can not think of another positive. This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense. Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route ([i]Tl;DR - Jump Bridge Fatigue is a dumb punishment for utilizing you own space. It is like giving someone hands and telling them not to play with themselves.



That whole bit right there. Silly goons will just continue to be silly. The whole point of you not being able to skip half of space is so that you have more activity in space. JB's and Power Projection were the entire reason nullsec became dullsec. If you have people moving around gates, then you have no interaction.

And now, if someone runs through your space with a fleet you can't just automatically JB to the pipe's exist system to cut them off with a massive camp. Now you have to give chase and actually catch them. I keep seeing a lot of benefits here.

1) More people are forced to actually be out in space moving around so there are more opportunities for interactions, i.e pop
2) You can't just automatically JB in front of a fleet in your space and hell camp them in your space which means more people are willing to actually roam
3) You can't just immediately titan bridge an entire fleet over and over on roaming gangs which means more people are willing to actually roam.


Should I keep going? Grow up goons and learn to play like everyone else.

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