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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1481 - 2015-02-20 21:41:05 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:


No, the reason your items have doubled in price is because a host of changes have been made to the game. Again, nothing exists in a vaccuum. The build cost of ships have changed over the years and even the job install cost has changed alittle less than a year ago. The bottom line is that goods do not cost more solely due to inflation. Even a cursory understanding of the changes to the game over the years would show you that.


The bulk of mods have not changed their build cost.


Valterra Cravea wrote:

And given that LP is grounded in isk then it also means that LP is worth less and less.


Wrong. Inflation means the cost to buy LP items on the market has gone up along with everything else.


Valterra Craven wrote:

No, it isn't. You still haven't figured how the process for acquiring things like damage mods works or why their prices are not in any way reflective of inflation.


Getting them has not changed in ten years, the LP market works in the exact same way.

Valterra Craven wrote:


Missions are not now worth more than anoms.


Yes, they are. It has been shown time and again how to match anom level income with level 3 missions in highsec, level 4 missions offer even better isk.
Valterra Craven
#1482 - 2015-02-20 21:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
baltec1 wrote:

The bulk of mods have not changed their build cost.


And which mods have shown significant changes in price due to inflation?
http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=1539#history

The 2500 day history of a T1 Power Diag show no signs of inflation.


baltec1 wrote:

Wrong. Inflation means the cost to buy LP items on the market has gone up along with everything else.


And yet despite a few examples, LP item prices are pretty stable.

http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=30488#history
The 2500 day history of a sisters probe show no signs of inflation.


baltec1 wrote:

Getting them has not changed in ten years, the LP market works in the exact same way.


You're right, you know what has changed? How you acquire the items that are required to buy things from the store in the first place. Hint: Not everything in the LP store needs just the item plus some isk. Let me know when you've done the math on much it costs to acquire something in the LP store like a dmg mod and how its price is reflective of exactly that.

baltec1 wrote:

Yes, they are. It has been shown time and again how to match anom level income with level 3 missions in highsec, level 4 missions offer even better isk.


Ok, then please do so.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1483 - 2015-02-20 22:09:26 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Junk


EVE markets goes back to at best 2008, mostly 2010. There will not be records that go back to 2004-5 when level 4 missions were added.

Valterra Craven wrote:

Ok, then please do so.


Oh I have, many many times in many many threads you have posted in. You have ignored this info every time just like you are now. Damn near everyone knows about the mach for level 3s.
Valterra Craven
#1484 - 2015-02-20 22:15:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


EVE markets goes back to at best 2008, mostly 2010. There will not be records that go back to 2004-5 when level 4 missions were added.


And your point is what exactly?

If you can't prove that inflation is even relevant in a 7 YEAR PEROID, then inflation must not be fricking important TODAY.

Valterra Craven wrote:

Oh I have, many many times in many many threads you have posted in. You have ignored this info every time just like you are now. Damn near everyone knows about the mach for level 3s.


I've ignored nothing you've said as I've responded to every post you've quoted me in. Do you read every single post in every single thread you post in? Do you read every single post that occurs in a day? I personally didn't read anything before page 31 in this thread. But since then I've seen you offer nothing to prove this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1485 - 2015-02-20 22:29:33 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:


I have. You managing to find one of two items nobody uses does not change anything. Inflation has happened, CCP themselves have shown this and even taken action to slow it down.

[quote=Valterra Craven]


I've ignored nothing you've said as I've responded to every post you've quoted me in. Do you read every single post in every single thread you post in? Do you read every single post that occurs in a day? I personally didn't read anything before page 31 in this thread. But since then I've seen you offer nothing to prove this.


I have told you directly in several other threads as have others. But hey, lets humour you again. Worth of note is that I have improved upon his fit for even faster times.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1486 - 2015-02-20 22:36:23 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



And? That is crap isk.


That crap is is less that what you would make with the SAME HULL (Machariel, which is what I primarily fly everywhere expect Blood/Sansha space because of TDing) in null sec chaining anomalies. Best you get from a mach in SOV null is 90 mil per hour (30 mil ticks) and that's pushing hard as hell.

Glad you can see the imbalance here.



But at any point in time running those anoms you have the potential of getting a rare big payout. There is no random giant payout in high-sec missions.

Also we should point out that upgraded SOV systems always have the anoms that always pay out the same bounties. While unlikely, it is possible that you get a string of missions from an agent that are completely crap, or faction killing.

See there is actual in game risk to running missions, you get to watch your opposing faction drop making you essentially a KOS pirate in that space... But according to you being KOS is the end of the world, so Missions are deadly.


Having to use an example that even you have to admit doesn't ever happen should have shown you the flaw there.

And yea, anoms can escalate. Forcing you out of the system you are in (thus creating an opportunity cost situation while you go several jumps for a CHANCE at loot). Meanwhile, you can set your clock by lvl 4 mission rewards.

So, if you are a null pilot and you want isk for pvp ships (and maybe faction gear or hardwiring from the lp store for pvp) which makes more sense:

High sec 90 mil per hour ASSURED in a gank resistant (and 'unprofitable for gankers even if they do gank it) Machariel protected mechanically by CONCORD

or

null sec 90 mil an hour MAYBE if their are no frig gangs or wormhole raiders about and maybe you get an escalation that if it drops nothing but the OPE you just lost isk.

Rhtorical question, the answer is 'C, faction warfare bomber alt', but the point is that the imbalance exists, being able to make the same isk per hour in safety as you can in space where their is no CONCORD violates the very principle of risk vs reward. I pve in null despite this because I like to, but the fact of the imbalance cannot be disputed.

Fixing the imbalance won't make people leave high sec (I don't give a flat damn about where people play), it will simply allow those of us with "out of null" alts to move those alts back to null where they belong, which is better for everyone. And it's not just high sec that needs fixing, pretty much the only space that works correctly in EVE Online along the risk/reward scheme is wormhole space, and that's a shame.
Valterra Craven
#1487 - 2015-02-20 22:43:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I have told you directly in several other threads as have others. But hey, lets humour you again. Worth of note is that I have improved upon his fit for even faster times.


That thread seems to be missing something. Store offers aren't free.

So in other words you can't just do a straight conversion of 1k lp into 1-2million isk because store offers cost items and money.

Basically what ever the missions pays out in isk and bonus isk is sunk back into it when you convert the lp into items.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1488 - 2015-02-20 22:48:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


So, if you are a null pilot and you want isk for pvp ships (and maybe faction gear or hardwiring from the lp store for pvp) which makes more sense:

High sec 90 mil per hour ASSURED in a gank resistant (and 'unprofitable for gankers even if they do gank it) Machariel protected mechanically by CONCORD

or

null sec 90 mil an hour MAYBE if their are no frig gangs or wormhole raiders about and maybe you get an escalation that if it drops nothing but the OPE you just lost isk.

Rhtorical question, the answer is 'C, faction warfare bomber alt', but the point is that the imbalance exists, being able to make the same isk per hour in safety as you can in space where their is no CONCORD violates the very principle of risk vs reward. I pve in null despite this because I like to, but the fact of the imbalance cannot be disputed.

Fixing the imbalance won't make people leave high sec (I don't give a flat damn about where people play), it will simply allow those of us with "out of null" alts to move those alts back to null where they belong, which is better for everyone. And it's not just high sec that needs fixing, pretty much the only space that works correctly in EVE Online along the risk/reward scheme is wormhole space, and that's a shame.



Ah but you are forgetting some very important things. There are gankers in highsec, you have to watch out for them. You are also not assured anything with missions, you might get some very bad missions all in a row which drop your numbers. Anoms always have a respawn so they are much more stable.

The Mach that Baltec uses has no tank, it is easier to kill than a hauler, so you are a sitting duck if you are caught by a group of gankers. Also the income in missions is primarily LP in your scenario, which fluctuates and depends on time spent making things from BPCs and market-foo. The anoms pay you today, now, every tick.

If you are a null pvp pilot, you are far better off running anoms in your intel protected sov space where you know a neutral is trouble and you know when they come into your zone of concern. Also, no matter how you cut it you are taking the top of the line ships for highsec while ignoring the top of the line ships for the null anoms.

Mach vs Ishtar would be more appropriate because Machs are horrible for most null space. Mach vs Thanny far better comparison. Mach+implants as Baltec used to get 90mil/hr is 4x the price of a good fit sentry Thanny.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1489 - 2015-02-20 22:49:00 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I have told you directly in several other threads as have others. But hey, lets humour you again. Worth of note is that I have improved upon his fit for even faster times.


That thread seems to be missing something. Store offers aren't free.

So in other words you can't just do a straight conversion of 1k lp into 1-2million isk because store offers cost items and money.

Basically what ever the missions pays out in isk and bonus isk is sunk back into it when you convert the lp into items.


The calculations are AFTER you buy the item. Thats how much you get per LP.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1490 - 2015-02-20 22:49:48 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I have told you directly in several other threads as have others. But hey, lets humour you again. Worth of note is that I have improved upon his fit for even faster times.


That thread seems to be missing something. Store offers aren't free.

So in other words you can't just do a straight conversion of 1k lp into 1-2million isk because store offers cost items and money.

Basically what ever the missions pays out in isk and bonus isk is sunk back into it when you convert the lp into items.



It is also missing the cost of time to make things from BPCs, haul things to market, buying tags and market-foo for selling at best prices.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1491 - 2015-02-20 22:52:40 UTC
LP/ISK conversion is terrible on everything except SoE probe launchers and I've been told, certain Thukker items. This talk about mission LP being such great income is nonsense. Conversion rate on the probe launchers is about 1600 ISK/lp last I checked; most other items don't break 1000. The damage mods which require large numbers of extremely expensive tags are absolutely terrible investments.

I invite someone to show me an item that breaks 2000 lp/isk without extensive manipulation.
Valterra Craven
#1492 - 2015-02-20 22:54:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The calculations are AFTER you buy the item. Thats how much you get per LP.


Ok, so follow-up question, how many people actually blitz missions like that compared to the way everyone else runs missions?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1493 - 2015-02-20 22:55:04 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


Ah but you are forgetting some very important things. There are gankers in highsec, you have to watch out for them.


In 8 years I have not been been scanned let alone ganked doing missions. The risk of getting ganked is close to non existent.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

You are also not assured anything with missions, you might get some very bad missions all in a row which drop your numbers.

No, you wont.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

The Mach that Baltec uses has no tank, it is easier to kill than a hauler, so you are a sitting duck if you are caught by a group of gankers.


Its not easier to kill than a hauler and no, it will not get ganked.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Mach vs Ishtar would be more appropriate because Machs are horrible for most null space. Mach vs Thanny far better comparison. Mach+implants as Baltec used to get 90mil/hr is 4x the price of a good fit sentry Thanny.


thanatox is 1.3 billion just for the hull, the mach I use is 860 million fully fitted.
Valterra Craven
#1494 - 2015-02-20 22:56:15 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

I invite someone to show me an item that breaks 2000 lp/isk without extensive manipulation.


I bet you'll be waiting a long time. Most people that make arguments for high LP payouts will never admit what the actual item they are talking about is since that would be a trade secret and would mess with their incomes. Thats assuming it even exists.
Valterra Craven
#1495 - 2015-02-20 22:58:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


In 8 years I have not been been scanned let alone ganked doing missions. The risk of getting ganked is close to non existent.


Actually that's not true. But it depends entirely on where you missions. I started running some minnie missions to get my corp standing up to run the minnie epic, and I had to move because people were constantly scanning me down and ninja looting over there. An experience I never had until I started to mission there.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1496 - 2015-02-20 22:59:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


Ah but you are forgetting some very important things. There are gankers in highsec, you have to watch out for them.


In 8 years I have not been been scanned let alone ganked doing missions. The risk of getting ganked is close to non existent.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

You are also not assured anything with missions, you might get some very bad missions all in a row which drop your numbers.

No, you wont.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

The Mach that Baltec uses has no tank, it is easier to kill than a hauler, so you are a sitting duck if you are caught by a group of gankers.


Its not easier to kill than a hauler and no, it will not get ganked.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Mach vs Ishtar would be more appropriate because Machs are horrible for most null space. Mach vs Thanny far better comparison. Mach+implants as Baltec used to get 90mil/hr is 4x the price of a good fit sentry Thanny.


thanatox is 1.3 billion just for the hull, the mach I use is 860 million fully fitted.



Check the daily kill logs in Osmon... people get scanned down and ganked every day.

Yes, you will get strings of bad missions, everyone does and they either use their standings buffer or wait out the timer.

Yes your Mach has about 40k ehp

You didn't give us numbers for a Mach, you gave us numbers for a Mach with an Ascendancy implant set that costs 3bil... Stop playing stupid forum games.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1497 - 2015-02-20 23:06:53 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
LP/ISK conversion is terrible on everything except SoE probe launchers and I've been told, certain Thukker items. This talk about mission LP being such great income is nonsense. Conversion rate on the probe launchers is about 1600 ISK/lp last I checked; most other items don't break 1000. The damage mods which require large numbers of extremely expensive tags are absolutely terrible investments.

I invite someone to show me an item that breaks 2000 lp/isk without extensive manipulation.



Sisters Combat Scanner Probe = 2182.7

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher = 2259.7

Mid-grade Virtue Beta = 2560.1

Caldari Navy Warfare Mindlink = 2416.2

Zainou 'Snapshot' FOF Explosion Radius FR-1003 = 2218.3

Imperial Navy Energized Explosive Membrane = 2920.6

Zainou 'Snapshot' FOF Explosion Radius FR-1003 = 2218.3

A great number have 2K+ isk/LP
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1498 - 2015-02-20 23:10:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Kills should require risk and effort.


I could say the same thing about income generation mechanics.


Quote:

I do not think 5-10 year old players should be sitting in highsec greening their kb with proteus vs retriever fights.


And I think that if you want e-honor, then you're playing the wrong game. EVE is about player freedom, not samurai bushido in space.

If you want them to have a "fair fight", go kill them yourself. Or do you just want the NPCs to do that for you, too?


Stop strawmanning as if I expect frigates at high noon in the novice for every fight. Kills should require risk and effort. Highsec pvp currently expects little to none of wardec spammers. Their only threat is from other merc corps and that's easily avoidable and short-lived because it's unprofitable for both parties.

The fact that you repeatedly deny this makes me think your sole interest is in CCP subsidized content for your playstyle.

I look at you and your associates' killboards and I laugh. Most of you hardly even log on.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1499 - 2015-02-20 23:11:22 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

That thread seems to be missing something. Store offers aren't free.

So in other words you can't just do a straight conversion of 1k lp into 1-2million isk because store offers cost items and money.

Basically what ever the missions pays out in isk and bonus isk is sunk back into it when you convert the lp into items.


Do you even play the game? I hate, I mean I truly despise the PvE activity in this game and even I know better than this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1500 - 2015-02-20 23:12:11 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Check the daily kill logs in Osmon... people get scanned down and ganked every day.


Now look at the 41 carriers we have lost in our space this month alone. Chances of getting ganked is so small you can run hundreds of thousands of missions before it might happen.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Yes, you will get strings of bad missions, everyone does and they either use their standings buffer or wait out the timer.


No you dont. We can dump the bad ones and have our standings be stable.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Yes your Mach has about 40k ehp[/quote[

And 1k+ firepower with a fast align time and a rep. They wont bother you unless you are stuipd and fit nothing but pimp.

[quote=Market McSelling Alt]
You didn't give us numbers for a Mach, you gave us numbers for a Mach with an Ascendancy implant set that costs 3bil... Stop playing stupid forum games.


So your using a carrier without ascendancy impants and think you can earn good money? Its also highsec, you have to actively try to lose a pod there.