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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#1201 - 2015-02-20 22:31:07 UTC
man I am bored to death of this thread, its really pitiful that ccp refuses to even post here to acknowledge they're reading it..


who who has the score of this debate..


how many for it?

how many against it?


dang it can we not just get an official VOTE poll that can not be hacked, can not be cheated.. can we VOTE for this!..


I am sick of the endless debates man I know how why zod shot that council in Man of Steel.

good grief get to conclusion already

back and forth , back and forth... even pimps would have had enough time to marry their hoes by now.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1202 - 2015-02-20 22:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
So:

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
And yes. We do play different. I have always been an industrial player. I like sandbox games for the building aspect. That doesnt mean I dont PVP but I do it in response to threats. I dont roam all that much. And yes I live in null. I have given all my alts. Pretty easy to see where I am.


and to that I will add the now standard quote:

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Which in itself leads back to why I say that a player should be able to remove a camper from a system. Where as a PVPer may view a POS or a Station as some 'tent' that a PVE player runs to for safety when PVPers show up, I dont see it that way. That tent is my home. My castle that my corp built that is used for my livelihood in EVE. I see no reason why anyone should be forced to allow a swatter to sit in system and disrupt my activities for weeks on end. It would be one thing if a great force occupied my system and I was unable to do anything, but that is not the case. As it stands now. I have to sit on my hands and just hope the camper wishes to leave at some point. No. I dont think that is fair to the players that have spent so much time and effort into building and owning the space they have.


And this is why the only 'counter' you would consider 'valid' is one that lets you preemptively remove covops ship from your sov. You simply want to separate yourself from pvp and to that end you crave for an all-blue-sov home. You may deny it all you want, but it's obvious from your posts.

You mistook this game for something it isn't:

Quote:
5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?
In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.


Quote:
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.


And of course you have company in this confusion. Here for example:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=405300

we can read this amusing line:

Quote:
4. Engaging in cloaky camping has PROVEN to be effective, systems will empty out and players are forced to downgrade from expensive, effective ships to less expensive, less effective ships, or move out of the system, which is often not possible because people can be renting 1 system that they are limited to.


So before you whine again demanding CCP to fix you the game consider what kind of game you are in fact playing. Before you wonder why cloaks aren't getting 'fixed' to your expectations, ask yourself: why after an ocean of tear in this forum hi-sec still isn't policed proactively, i.e. you can gank there with no permission and count CONCORD in the costs.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1203 - 2015-02-20 22:50:21 UTC
Quote:

The fact that you can quote a player who gets kills, which we cannot even determine the circumstances for, is meaningless.
(Are they actually all PvE kills, partially, etc.)


I see a lot of those kills in my intel channels. A lot are ratters.

Regardless of the percentages, it still proves your point invalid. You dont have to camp to get kills.

BTW https://zkillboard.com/ship/22544/losses/

I would say PVE ships get blown up pretty often in null and high sec. That's just the hulk

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1204 - 2015-02-20 23:23:58 UTC
Beside the fact that you misunderstood what I wrote, your still wrong. Thanks Delegate

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1205 - 2015-02-20 23:24:22 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

The fact that you can quote a player who gets kills, which we cannot even determine the circumstances for, is meaningless.
(Are they actually all PvE kills, partially, etc.)


I see a lot of those kills in my intel channels. A lot are ratters.

Regardless of the percentages, it still proves your point invalid. You dont have to camp to get kills.

BTW https://zkillboard.com/ship/22544/losses/

I would say PVE ships get blown up pretty often in null and high sec. That's just the hulk

The hulk is hardly a poster child for good defensive posture, so anyone foolish enough to be careless in null flying one, they get what they get.

Out of the 15 kills on the 20th, 3 of them were in null. That means an average of 4 out of 5 hulks were more at risk everywhere else, judging by that stat. Null must be the safest place to fly one, apparently.

Out of the 14 kills on the 19th, only 1 was in null sec. The other 13 were all in high sec, having sec status of .5 or higher.
High sec is an amazingly dangerous place to PvE... I understand why moving to null has such appeal now.

The 18th, wild times, 20 hulks popped.
5 of them in null.... I seem to notice a pattern.... High sec got 12 of those.... and people laughingly call it safer than null!

Did I mention my hypothesis that PvE was notably safer in null?
Your statistics clearly support it, thank you.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1206 - 2015-02-20 23:27:45 UTC
Quote:

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.


This has been corrected

Quote:

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
Yes; Train cloak, sit in space. Dont move. PVP avoided

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1207 - 2015-02-20 23:37:21 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.


This has been corrected

Quote:

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
Yes; Train cloak, sit in space. Dont move. PVP avoided


That's all you can muster? Whine in this thread should make it clear to you that "there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" (sic)
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1208 - 2015-02-21 00:04:37 UTC
Nikk. I am not proving the point of it null is safe or not. I am pointing out that you are still wrong in regards to AFK cloaking being the only way to get kills.

Try to stay on topic. Your claim is that AFK cloaking should be allowed cause its the only way to get kills. This is wrong and with provable evidence.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1209 - 2015-02-21 04:00:27 UTC
Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized.

So whats the problem with this?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1210 - 2015-02-21 04:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Haywoud Jablomi
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized.

So whats the problem with this?


The problem I see with this, is that it is suddenly expected for a group to maintain a fleet to defend against one player. Unlike someone invading where a proper response can be made, even in the short term of someone sitting around for hours or even days, I find it unbalanced and unreasonable to expect this to be the norm for weeks or months.

That is where I see the problem. A camper expends 0 effort at all while in system, yet is expected that the defending group should maintain a constant vigil, day and night.

Edit: And a small threat is still a threat. Like I said. It's never neutralized with the current system.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1211 - 2015-02-21 15:03:45 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized.

So whats the problem with this?


The problem I see with this, is that it is suddenly expected for a group to maintain a fleet to defend against one player. Unlike someone invading where a proper response can be made, even in the short term of someone sitting around for hours or even days, I find it unbalanced and unreasonable to expect this to be the norm for weeks or months.

That is where I see the problem. A camper expends 0 effort at all while in system, yet is expected that the defending group should maintain a constant vigil, day and night.

Edit: And a small threat is still a threat. Like I said. It's never neutralized with the current system.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

If the camper is expending zero effort, they have no fleet to attack with, nor are they paying attention.
Zero effort = zero risk.

If the camper has friends on standby, then they are making a clear effort. The expectation that this requires comparable effort to neutralize seems fair.

Your objection, is based apparently on the uncertainty where you believe they have no threat, but owing to your lack of this awareness, you waste effort defending against what might otherwise exist.
In other words, you expect they are bluffing, and feel cheated.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1212 - 2015-02-21 15:48:56 UTC
Quote:


You seem to be contradicting yourself.

If the camper is expending zero effort, they have no fleet to attack with, nor are they paying attention.
Zero effort = zero risk.

If the camper has friends on standby, then they are making a clear effort. The expectation that this requires comparable effort to neutralize seems fair.

Your objection, is based apparently on the uncertainty where you believe they have no threat, but owing to your lack of this awareness, you waste effort defending against what might otherwise exist.
In other words, you expect they are bluffing, and feel cheated.


And you seem to be talking in circles. Growing tired of your overly literal interpretations of what I say.

Here minimal effort. Is that better? You do realize that your last paragraph makes no sense, right?

I realize that you dont understand how null actually works, but I would guess you would be smart enough to realize that if there is a threat in system, no matter how little that threat is, you cant just ignore it.

No, like I have said a hundred times so far. The issue I see with AFK cloaking is that once they are in system and setup camp, there is nothing you can do to threaten them. They achieve 100% safety. This, I see as a flaw.

The overall debate really does come down to how long it should be allowed. In the short term I have never had an issue with it campers. However when it moves into weeks and months, it becomes trolling. The fact that this is possible, is where I think the game mechanic needs to be addressed.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1213 - 2015-02-21 19:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk. I am not proving the point of it null is safe or not. I am pointing out that you are still wrong in regards to AFK cloaking being the only way to get kills.

Try to stay on topic. Your claim is that AFK cloaking should be allowed cause its the only way to get kills. This is wrong and with provable evidence.


Idiots not looking at local does not an argument make.


In the end, an AFK cloaker can do nothing.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1214 - 2015-02-21 19:48:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk. I am not proving the point of it null is safe or not. I am pointing out that you are still wrong in regards to AFK cloaking being the only way to get kills.

Try to stay on topic. Your claim is that AFK cloaking should be allowed cause its the only way to get kills. This is wrong and with provable evidence.


Idiots not looking at local does not an argument make.


In the end, an AFK cloaker can do nothing.


Only if you accept the term at its most literal. AFK cloaker is a general term for a style of game play. You know that and you know your statement is wrong.

There is plenty of proof that AFK cloaking is not the only way to get kills.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1215 - 2015-02-22 00:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Haywood you said yourself, an afk cloaker is NEVER going to attack as long as a fleet is around. A threat that is made insignificant, (I.e. Never going to happen) is neutralized.

So whats the problem with this?


The problem I see with this, is that it is suddenly expected for a group to maintain a fleet to defend against one player. Unlike someone invading where a proper response can be made, even in the short term of someone sitting around for hours or even days, I find it unbalanced and unreasonable to expect this to be the norm for weeks or months.

That is where I see the problem. A camper expends 0 effort at all while in system, yet is expected that the defending group should maintain a constant vigil, day and night.

Edit: And a small threat is still a threat. Like I said. It's never neutralized with the current system.



It is not expected. ive said before that its barely practiced because AFK cloakers are a non-issue for so many people. its just the price of extra safety.

And just like a camper expends no effort to project an effect, a ratter expends no effort to get his intel from local. they both are less than fun and they both should change, or neither should change.

A small threat is still a threat true. But under no circumstance, mechanic or system should there ever be exactly no threat. I dont think you are here to tell me you should be able to rat perfectly safely by throwing more fleet members at a problem.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1216 - 2015-02-22 03:36:36 UTC
Quote:

A small threat is still a threat true. But under no circumstance, mechanic or system should there ever be exactly no threat. I dont think you are here to tell me you should be able to rat perfectly safely by throwing more fleet members at a problem.


Changing cloak to eliminate the potential for 100% safety in space would not create a 100% safe environment in null. You know this, and so does everyone else. I have even shown this with direct evidence.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1217 - 2015-02-22 11:57:29 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:


Only if you accept the term at its most literal. AFK cloaker is a general term for a style of game play. You know that and you know your statement is wrong.

There is plenty of proof that AFK cloaking is not the only way to get kills.


Please provide said proof of an AFK cloaker that has killed anything.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1218 - 2015-02-22 14:27:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:


Only if you accept the term at its most literal. AFK cloaker is a general term for a style of game play. You know that and you know your statement is wrong.

There is plenty of proof that AFK cloaking is not the only way to get kills.


Please provide said proof of an AFK cloaker that has killed anything.


Please review the last 61 pages of posts. You will find all the evidence you need.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1219 - 2015-02-22 16:17:11 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

A small threat is still a threat true. But under no circumstance, mechanic or system should there ever be exactly no threat. I dont think you are here to tell me you should be able to rat perfectly safely by throwing more fleet members at a problem.


Changing cloak to eliminate the potential for 100% safety in space would not create a 100% safe environment in null. You know this, and so does everyone else. I have even shown this with direct evidence.



But it does still increases the safety of ratting. something that is already very safe thanks to local. Remember, every criticism you have had of cloakers is easily applied to ratting under the safety of local.

Change one. Change the other with it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1220 - 2015-02-22 18:29:17 UTC
Local is a tool provided in game. Using it can not provide 100% safety. A pilot must always be watching and it has been shown with in game data that ships in null can be caught and killed without the use of a cloak. Though local can make it far more difficult for an invading pilot to achieve his or her goal due to setup alliance intel channels, it is still quite possible to do. Local is only as good as the pilot using it. If they are not careful they can be caught and even if they are the most careful out there, they can still be caught. I have proven this.

On the other hand cloak is a game mechanic that people can use to achieve 100% safety. Though balanced in areas where travelling via gate can result in a ship lose, once a ship is past a gate and in a safe spot, it is impossible to locate them. Even in your sig you quote what CCP has said about how there is no place that PVP can be avoided, however that is wrong. With a cloak you can completely avoid combat, even if you are in the middle of combat. You could be down to 10% hull and if you manage to warp off and cloak up. You again are safe forever.

The relative safety of ratting in null is not a valid argument against any changes to cloak, as null was never designed to be a dangerous place. It was designed to be player run, which does imply that there will be danger as players fight over resources but it has never been stated that areas must be dangerous. When EVE was launched and people moved into null, it is possible they could of agreed to work together and shared resources and turned EVE into a type of minecraft in space. Luckily that didnt happen.

Cloak and local honestly both need work.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)