These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Where's a good war when you need one

Author
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#61 - 2015-02-20 03:53:57 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Make the resources finite...


The one simple solution that would solve so many of the problems plaguing this game right now. If I had the power to change one thing, and one thing only with EVE, this would be it.

Keep up the good fight, Herzog.

Mr Epeen Cool

Wait, did he just... Basically say the spice must flow?

I dunno about you guys, but I interpreted Jump Fatigue as a throttle on gameplay as we knew it, including gate use. I saw supercap blobs happening, with their power more localized but also much more secure. And reluctant to go very far.

I lacked (lack) the perspective to say anything about what would happen regarding sov changes, other than warfare being like a steamroller, but looking back...

how was this supposed to turn out any way other than entrenching everyone

Isn't it better to err on the side of keeping things kill-y



I think it is, and I (and many others) said as much when the change was announced. I knew just as soon as I saw people proclaiming "this is great, this will really open things up" that it was going to fail.

Again I wasn't the only one, but I absolute warned that this change would change the "Blue Donut" into a BLUE BRICK of established null groups holding the parts of null nearest empire (and holding the HELL out of it now that super caps can't go far) while continuing to rent out the 'far reaches' that now can only be reached by going through 'established group space'.

TL;DR, people hear of a change, and they are so emotionally blinded by their dislike of the status quo that they don't understand that they are about to get screwed because the 'change' they are celebrating is about to make things WORSE lol. This change didn't open up anything, all it did was disappoint those who thought they'd have an opening while making the game less fun for the people already out in null.
Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#62 - 2015-02-20 04:14:56 UTC
Cue new EVE theme song (sung to the "Green Acres" theme music)

Hi-sec is the place to be
Ice mining is the life for me
'roids spreading out so far and wide
Keep Null-sec, just give me that care bear life

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2015-02-20 04:24:09 UTC
It seems to have killed the lag fests. I've experienced less of those since coming out to null, than I did before. That's another thing I saw happening, which seemed like a great time to come out.

I haven't broken out the caps yet, but that is one thing I look forward to.

Totally lucked out in meeting the right people to get my first choice of org for capital gameplay in k-space.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-02-20 04:43:07 UTC
Dear Goon,

Ask your own "org" about the lack of gudfites. Posting in GD to ask other people is a lot like how your leadership is always looking externally to solve a problem of their own invention.

You are the mercury in our tuna.

And, grr.. you.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#65 - 2015-02-20 05:32:57 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Make the resources finite...


The one simple solution that would solve so many of the problems plaguing this game right now. If I had the power to change one thing, and one thing only with EVE, this would be it.

Keep up the good fight, Herzog.

Mr Epeen Cool

Wait, did he just... Basically say the spice must flow?

I dunno about you guys, but I interpreted Jump Fatigue as a throttle on gameplay as we knew it, including gate use. I saw supercap blobs happening, with their power more localized but also much more secure. And reluctant to go very far.

I lacked (lack) the perspective to say anything about what would happen regarding sov changes, other than warfare being like a steamroller, but looking back...

how was this supposed to turn out any way other than entrenching everyone

Isn't it better to err on the side of keeping things kill-y




I like you. You're not like other goons. Next time I roam Pure Blind in a SB I won't bomb you. Cool

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2015-02-20 05:58:09 UTC
Surely, EVE-O is neutral ground enough that you wouldn't say such things, even if only to placate me. Sibyyl.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-02-20 07:15:20 UTC

I am probably just being facetious with my second favorite goon (you).

The jump changes lets the establishment shed off scattered systems they couldn't hold onto and dig their heels in, functionally changing very little. This is likely not quite what CCP was trying to accomplish, while alienating some of their senior-most player base (the cap pilots).

What none of us seem to be able to come up with is a solution that would produce more B-R5RBs (dangerous activity) amongst groups who have no financial reason to take any risk.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2015-02-20 07:27:19 UTC
Your first favorite Goon, does the name start with a C and rhyme with Nommissar?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-02-20 07:30:02 UTC

Never not Motoko.

You guessed correctly.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Serene Repose
#70 - 2015-02-20 07:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
I saw jump fatigue as an attempt to reign in promiscuous use of game mechanics that was quickly eclipsing everything all at once. The component that's constantly overlooked, a$ once you pa$$ a few thre$hold$ $ome thing$ become incon$equential to you...if you catch my DRIFT....is the idea of cost itself being a sort of governing factor to certain activities.

From my humble corner cap ships, hot dropping, weeklong thousand ship fleet fights with no change in the map at ALL were becoming as common as duels in Hek....every fifteen seconds. The affordability hurdle being no hurdle at all turned what were intended to be epic events with map altering outcomes into nothing more than spars. It became too EA$Y. So...I have to admit, they came up with a rather ingenious way to give it some perspective and proportion without altering the underlying structure too heavily.

Of course, those who were rolling in the mud having a gay old time, figuring life will be fine from here to kingdom come, being a pig in this mudhole is a young boyz dream...naturally they'll be butthurt over it! Naturally they'll squeal like stuck....where does bacon come from again? And, so they did. However. The concept of deploying force has fundamentally changed. For the good? That'll be determined by movement of the blue donut...after a while. If at all.

I'll speculate on that. I think the motivations for achievement in EVE are different. I think the people who think in terms of geopolitics have been replaced with people who think in terms of ranged conflict. By that I mean, there's a universe's difference between taking and holding. Our new breed....well...it remains to be seen if they're cut rate Napoleons, or digital Alexander the Greats. Puzzle that one out with a copy of Sun Tzu in your lap....this is, if you HAVE one. Cool

TYVM. Have a nice day!Big smile

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#71 - 2015-02-20 11:15:15 UTC
Jane Shapperd wrote:
if you didn't get a fight since the fatigue expansion , you obviously in the wrong Alliance Roll

well...

goons.

amirite?
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-02-20 11:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: knobber Jobbler
Sibyyl wrote:
Dear Goon,

Ask your own "org" about the lack of gudfites. Posting in GD to ask other people is a lot like how your leadership is always looking externally to solve a problem of their own invention.

You are the mercury in our tuna.

And, grr.. you.



Grrr.

None of the null players is doing much right now as they wait for the Sov announcement. Also, if you think we're the problem, who owns the entire south of the map and is renting it out?

Sibyyl wrote:



The jump changes lets the establishment shed off scattered systems they couldn't hold onto and dig their heels in, functionally changing very little. This is likely not quite what CCP was trying to accomplish, while alienating some of their senior-most player base (the cap pilots).

What none of us seem to be able to come up with is a solution that would produce more B-R5RBs (dangerous activity) amongst groups who have no financial reason to take any risk.


People did warn CCP when they announced the changes that this would happen, but it was drowned out by posters who would never take advantage of the situation and also didn't understand it how these changes would affect the game as a whole. All they saw was the large alliances were getting a nerf to capital deployments yet failed to realise this would just lead to entrenchment and ultimately make nullsec quite dull. I doubt you'll ever get a B-R ever again, it takes days to move a capital force across the map now and those entities which provided the medium scale fights and the bush wars no longer deploy due to the logistical problems of moving doctrines from one part of EVE to another in a carrier. In effect, Pheobe killed off casual players - read: have a job, which is most of us - being able to use carriers as a method of deploying and thus what made up those ~gud fites~ and imaginative doctrines.

The current EVE null fleet meta - and therefore what fleet fights you'll see - has boiled down to what is an effective doctrine you can move through a wormhole and is highly mobile. This is one reason you see literally everyone in Ishtars, Tengus and bombers and little else.

The Eye of Sauron was bad, all would agree that, but the measures taken to nullify it were not thought through in a wider context.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-02-20 13:09:51 UTC
kJ, I agree with your assessment here.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
All they saw was the large alliances were getting a nerf to capital deployments yet failed to realise this would just lead to entrenchment and ultimately make nullsec quite dull. I doubt you'll ever get a B-R ever again, it takes days to move a capital force across the map now and those entities which provided the medium scale fights and the bush wars no longer deploy due to the logistical problems of moving doctrines from one part of EVE to another in a carrier. In effect, Pheobe killed off casual players - read: have a job, which is most of us - being able to use carriers as a method of deploying and thus what made up those ~gud fites~ and imaginative doctrines.


What happened is that individual cap pilots who invested a large amount of time and resources came out to express their dissatisfaction, and the EVE community did what it does best: point and laugh at people on the wrong end of a CCP game mechanic change.

It is as if CCP heard the community and vindicated them by nerfing jumps.

Truth is, in theory making everyone jump gates sounds like a good way to introduce more fights. No instant teleportation? Well you have to fight your way to wherever it is you are trying to go.

But people don't want to die at a gate in a ship that costs more than their monthly or yearly salaries. Big fights have been too severely disincentivized.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#74 - 2015-02-20 16:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Ruckert
Want fights? Go find the new boys in town - Drifters. Check their killboard.

Or maybe they will find you. Stand by.

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#75 - 2015-02-20 17:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
knobber Jobbler wrote:


The Eye of Sauron was bad, all would agree that, but the measures taken to nullify it were not thought through in a wider context.



They never are, which Is why I love to link that DEV blog I linked earlier, CCP actually thought nerfing anoms would lead to more fights in null despite how we warned them that all it meant was a shift of PVE alts out of null (making for fewer targets for roaming gangs, leading to fewer roaming gangs, which led to fewer escalating fights etc).

We told them jump fatigue would lead to less fighting not more. For one reason, it made it hard to move multiple sub caps to new locations, meaning fewer deployments. They didn't listen. Hell, I even bookmarked a very snarky CCP Greyscale response to one of my posts on the issue for future use (that future would have been NOW) and the damn guy ain't even with CCP anymore (lol).

CCP is like the real life friend we all have that is a great person who means well and wants the best for you but who is also a bit neurotic and tends to make things worse rather than better when they try to 'help' you Smile
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2015-02-20 18:22:02 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I can't speak for others, but I've been laying low due to the isboxer thing. Slowly testing the specifics of what's allowed, since they haven't outline specifics, which would be useful to multiboxers. G-keys within a client seem to be okay, though, so that's good news.


They were clear. Any 3rd party program that facilitates ease of gameplay such as 1-click drives multiple clients is bannable. having multiple clients running and individually controlling, also considered under the multiboxing umbrella, is allowed.

Serene Repose
#77 - 2015-02-20 18:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
knobber Jobbler wrote:
...large alliances were getting a nerf to capital deployments yet failed to realise this would just lead to entrenchment and ultimately make nullsec quite dull....
Sounds great, logically speaking (in a way), however; wildly inaccurate bordering on total fabrication. The "entrenchment" as you call it, began after folks solidified what they ended up with after BoB was removed. In other words....the entrenchment was already there. So Goonwaffle of you to put it that way, though.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#78 - 2015-02-20 18:37:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is like the real life friend we all have that is a great person who means well and wants the best for you but who is also a bit neurotic and tends to make things worse rather than better when they try to 'help' you Smile
God forbid their vision for their game isn't the same as your vision for ... their game. Of course, you've done nothing all these months if not display your superior knowledge with regard to computer game development. How fond affection creates expertise. (You should take your talents to the world of marriage.) Shocked

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2015-02-20 21:03:34 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
individual cap pilots who invested a large amount of time and resources came out to express their dissatisfaction, and the EVE community did what it does best: point and laugh at people on the wrong end of a CCP game mechanic change.

So damn true. I also love the fact that Goonwaffe happened in the middle of that thread.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#80 - 2015-02-20 21:28:48 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is like the real life friend we all have that is a great person who means well and wants the best for you but who is also a bit neurotic and tends to make things worse rather than better when they try to 'help' you Smile
God forbid their vision for their game isn't the same as your vision for ... their game. Of course, you've done nothing all these months if not display your superior knowledge with regard to computer game development. How fond affection creates expertise. (You should take your talents to the world of marriage.) Shocked


That's a mighty big lump of butt hurt over the fact that you tend to be wrong when we communicate lol.

It has nothing to do with my viion of any game, I'm not a game maker. I'm commenting on how CCP does something with a goal in mind and that goal not only doesn't happen, the opposite happens. Or Did I just imagine this from 4 years ago?

Quote:
Expected consequences
•Some alliances will immediately start wanting to look for better space
•In the longer run, there'll be more conflicts going on, with more localized goals
•Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec
•Coalitions will be marginally less stable
•Alliances will have to choose more carefully what space they develop, where their staging systems are, and so on (low truesec systems generally tend to be in strategically inconvenient places)


Since I'm somehow wrong here, Pok Nibin, please demonstrate to me the parts of the above quote that actually happened.