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The end of Hybrid buff
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2011-12-21 14:59:39 UTC
Xol'tan wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:
Theres no reason in a fleet to fly anything other than a maelstrom the exception being support and infact its at the piont now where its expected you fly a Alpha setup even if you can only fit t1 1400's.

Rails have poor alpha and perform very badly in lag where they cannot leverage there slightly higher dps, latency demands you fit for the highest Alpha you can to be effective.

Something needs to change or the only ships we are going to see in pvp are Minmitar, atm they hold the best title in far to many catagories Canes and Tornado's Being best BC, Scimitars best Logi and Mealstroms best Fleet BS thats not even looking at HAC's, Dictors and Hictors.

I dont want this to seem a rant against Winmatar but rather a plea to ccp to do something new with hybrids to make them desireable again and ensure some variaty in fleet compositions.



This is not reality.

Abbaddon is pretty much the gold standard for large scale fleet engagements, alpha maels reach a point of diminishing returns once you fleet crests a certain number. Alpha isn't that important unless you are over 850 in system, and 250 pulse lasers will ******* wreck things just as well. Maels are so damned slow that they are relatively easy to out maneuver. Drop a Geddon fleet in the middle of a pack of maels and watch what happens.

Oracle, Naga and Tornado are relatively close depending on application. The guys flying them LOVE their Nagas surprisingly. The Oracle is facefucking DPS from a decent range....easily the best anti-support of the three, and the Tornado....well Tornado is as fast as a Fleet Stabber with a Maelstrom's guns.....whats not to like?

In BC's Drake has 85% more kills than Hurricane this month on eve-kill. Hurricane is a better hack and slash platform, but once you have more than 10 or so to a side the Drake is a better because it can actually survive an alpha or two. This becomes more important when you are stuck on a **** caged gate.

Dictors.....yeah all Sabre all day, this is unsurprising, the fastest ship fits the roll best.

Scimi is only situationally the best shield logi, mainly because the Basi is so bloody slow. The logis all have their uses now, Oneiros is no longer reviled.

Frigate...welp Dram is still the king of frigs, but holy hell the entire Gallente line + Dare Devil are just NASTY now, I mean nasty. I mean really they made my Ares faster....yes please.

T3 Tengu...need I say more

Recons are a closer race between Rapiers and Lachesis....again situational...but you rarely see either turned from fleet.


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.



yeah and you didn't outnumber them 2 to 1 or anything
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2011-12-21 15:06:55 UTC
Xol'tan wrote:
In large fleet battles everyone fits projectiles be they Mealstrom or Abbado


This discussion suddenly became pointless.
Xol'tan
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#143 - 2011-12-21 15:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xol'tan
Whats piontless is fitting Rails in a fleet battle.
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2011-12-21 16:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dana Gilmour
Xol'tan wrote:
Whats piontless is fitting Rails in a fleet battle.


You're not too bright are you? And can't really decide what your point is. You gave an example of one out of thousands Mael vs Abaddon fight and concluded there's no point fitting rails in a large fleet fight.

Which might actually be true but your line of thought was something like: 2 multiplied by 2 makes 4 therefore the sky is blue. Makes sense.

Not sure if to laugh at you or pity you.
Goose99
#145 - 2011-12-21 17:53:52 UTC
Xol'tan wrote:
Whats piontless is fitting Rails.


^There, I fixed that for you. Lol@ rails, whether in blob our not.Roll

Dana Gilmour wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:
Whats piontless is fitting Rails in a fleet battle.


You're not too bright are you? And can't really decide what your point is. You gave an example of one out of thousands Mael vs Abaddon fight and concluded there's no point fitting rails in a large fleet fight.

Which might actually be true but your line of thought was something like: 2 multiplied by 2 makes 4 therefore the sky is blue. Makes sense.

Not sure if to laugh at you or pity you.


Lol, what a tard. Blob = arty or gtfo. Biomass yourself.Lol
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2011-12-21 18:04:22 UTC
Goose99 wrote:


Lol, what a tard. Blob = arty or gtfo. Biomass yourself.Lol


The fail is strong in this one, he already reached the point of no return.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#147 - 2011-12-21 18:12:42 UTC
Orakkus wrote:

Well, looks like you missed a fairly significant piece of information.. something that EFT and Pyfa can't calculate. What you don't realize is that another factor is "hit quality", and that makes all the difference in the world. When you have combat at optimal ranges (and all other factors not coming into play), the percentage of barely hits, well-placed hits, etc. is a stable percentage, with the 5% being "Wrecking Shots". As you go into falloff, the TOP end of this spectrum degrades, meaning that there is a point in falloff where you cannot get Wrecking shots at all. (See Eve's information on falloff: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff, under the topic, "What does that mean for Turret DPS").

So while it may be technically true that the average, unmodified damage may degrade slowly, when you factor in the loss of higher quality hits, the practical damage applied to the isn't unreasonable.

No, I did not miss this.

However, you don't seem to realize that as you extend the falloff to ridiculous ranges, the degradation in the hit percentage diminishes less rapidly per km, too.

The problem is that the damage vs. falloff equation is applied to the normalized falloff of a weapon (ie. 0 to 100%), not the absolute falloff, in km. This means that a weapon system which benefits from extended falloff, such as ACs with Tracking Enhancers, will be much more effective out to greater ranges than other weapon systems, given roughly equivalent base damage.
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2011-12-21 18:29:51 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:


The problem is that the damage vs. falloff equation is applied to the normalized falloff of a weapon (ie. 0 to 100%), not the absolute falloff, in km. This means that a weapon system which benefits from extended falloff, such as ACs with Tracking Enhancers, will be much more effective out to greater ranges than other weapon systems, given roughly equivalent base damage.


There's your problem right there. Blasters damage and tracking are way better than ACs.
Goose99
#149 - 2011-12-21 18:55:40 UTC
Dana Gilmour wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:


The problem is that the damage vs. falloff equation is applied to the normalized falloff of a weapon (ie. 0 to 100%), not the absolute falloff, in km. This means that a weapon system which benefits from extended falloff, such as ACs with Tracking Enhancers, will be much more effective out to greater ranges than other weapon systems, given roughly equivalent base damage.


There's your problem right there. Blasters damage and tracking are way better than ACs.




POAST MOAR!Lol
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#150 - 2011-12-21 19:31:15 UTC
amarr needs balance to,every f****n ship has problems,either cpu either powergrid either you cant fit big guns just smaller ones either tank either capacitor.ccp seriosly has to look over these problems.and i was thinking gallente ships and weapon system had problems,they nothing compared to amarr ships and weapon systems
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#151 - 2011-12-21 19:33:22 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:
amarr needs balance to,every f****n ship has problems,either cpu either powergrid either you cant fit big guns just smaller ones either tank either capacitor.ccp seriosly has to look over these problems.and i was thinking gallente ships and weapon system had problems,they nothing compared to amarr ships and weapon systems



not to mention the dps from medium guns for example
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2011-12-21 19:38:04 UTC
to be honest, a rack of 425's on a navy mega/ mega / hype, along with 4-5 sentry drones puts out some impressive damage, even with armor setup. if shield setup, the navy mega can project almost 1k DPS past 50km. in other words, i think large rails outclass mega pulses right now.

however, large rails were not the TRUE issue. medium rails and ship bonuses are in dire need of fixing. and i think we've all decided blasters are ok in the niche role.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#153 - 2011-12-21 20:34:56 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
to be honest, a rack of 425's on a navy mega/ mega / hype, along with 4-5 sentry drones puts out some impressive damage, even with armor setup. if shield setup, the navy mega can project almost 1k DPS past 50km. in other words, i think large rails outclass mega pulses right now.

however, large rails were not the TRUE issue. medium rails and ship bonuses are in dire need of fixing. and i think we've all decided blasters are ok in the niche role.


Rail dps is pretty decent now.. given the better tracking and optimal, it will score more hits and provides it with a better dps curve. Their RoF is nice too.. if one gun misses, 2 more are going to fire before say a 1400 gets off its second round. And when a 1400 misses, its far more an issue to the overall dps than a d-425. Which is why to buff rail alpha is an absurd thing to do.. want full alpha, fit the alpha platform weapon system and lets not have two things that do the same exact thing.

The problem is lemming syndrome, and lazyness. What was it.. about a year ago when the mael fleets surged, because they proved good at countering what was popular before that. Since so many ppl aren't innovative enough to develop something original enough to be an effective counter and stable vs other setups, ppl will follow trends till a new trend takes over. Has happened over and over and over..

It'll change when a respectable alliance wins soundly against an arty setup (which really isn't a tough thing to counter if ppl would apply themselves, lazy fucks) and its made public, smeared into ppl's minds.

How easy it has become to simply sit in a ship, drop T3 link in bookmark, sit around, listen for primary and secondary, lock click fire, rinse and repeat and hardly ever do anything more constructive. Their is your problem.. and that's not really a problem in the game itself.. it is what the players have created by their own hands. Alpha makes for easy mode.. and really.. it ain't too hard to counter 1400s, but it takes more work and effort by a fleet than whats above. Ta-da.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Goose99
#154 - 2011-12-22 00:14:29 UTC
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#155 - 2011-12-22 00:45:06 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad


Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#156 - 2011-12-22 01:25:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad


Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang


Lol, personal attack. I take it that means you can't respond to contents of post quoted?Cool
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#157 - 2011-12-22 01:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad


Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang


Lol, personal attack. I take it that means you can't respond to contents of post quoted?Cool

Personal attack in that?

Hahahahah, are you for real or what?

But hey, you can't even answer Liang the easy peasy questions he was asking, so i'll guess you fail at PVP or don't have a freaking clue on what you are talking about.

So yeah, you have to claim that it's a personal attack as an excuse since you can't answer Liang on his questions.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Goose99
#158 - 2011-12-22 01:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
NightmareX wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad


Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang


Lol, personal attack. I take it that means you can't respond to contents of post quoted?Cool

Personal attack in that?

Hahahahah, are you for real or what?

But hey, you can't even answer Liang the easy peasy questions he was asking, so i'll guess you fail at PVP or don't have a freaking clue on what you are talking about.


Not going to waste my breath answering random questions that has too many answers based on situation and people present. But I will point out that if "it started at 1500 meters," it's a trap and you fail - Something liang has done.Lol

Lol@ personal attack as red herring to defer the issue and derail the thread.Roll

Btw, what color shirt are you wearing?Cool
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#159 - 2011-12-22 01:45:49 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.Sad


Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang


Lol, personal attack. I take it that means you can't respond to contents of post quoted?Cool

Personal attack in that?

Hahahahah, are you for real or what?

But hey, you can't even answer Liang the easy peasy questions he was asking, so i'll guess you fail at PVP or don't have a freaking clue on what you are talking about.


Not going to waste my breath answering random questions that has too many answers based on situation and people present. But I will point out that if "it started at 1500 meters," it's a trap and you fail - Something liang has done.Lol

Lol@ personal attack as red herring to defer the issue and derail the thread.Roll

Btw, what color shirt are you wearing?Cool

Why can't you answer Liang's questions?

Is it because you know he's right about what he's saying?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#160 - 2011-12-22 01:52:09 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Not going to waste my breath answering random questions that has too many answers based on situation and people present. But I will point out that if "it started at 1500 meters," it's a trap and you fail - Something liang has done.Lol

Lol@ personal attack as red herring to defer the issue and derail the thread.Roll


I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning to personally attack you. I was attempting to help you show us all that you know what you're talking about in PVP. Still, can you pick two or three situations and go over how you would solve them? How about the situation where I fell for a trap. How would you have responded in that same situation?

I mean hell - if you really want you can just fraps some of your mad leet PVP skills and simply show us how you PVP in "Winmatar" ships. Don't worry about making it jazzy with music or anything - just PVP as normal and give us tips that we haven't thought of because we're too stupid. :)

Quote:
Btw, what color shirt are you wearing?Cool


Its kindof a green/white plaid button up shirt. Think Portland Hippy and you're getting pretty close.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.