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Do experimental fits have any real value for pvp?
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DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-12-21 10:41:11 UTC
Experimental fits are fun to fly even if you lose them. And in the end, having fun is what the game is about!

Hell, my nanomaller is still alive and well...

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#22 - 2011-12-21 13:17:08 UTC
Since most people on these forums only PvP in EFT, Schmata I would suggest joining our Public Channel "The Tuskers Public Channel" and showing your fits there. We (along with all our guests, most of them red) will be able to give you actual critique rather than simply telling it's a failfit because it deviates from the norm. Also you might pick up a fair few things there - we discuss PvP pretty much exclusively and in great detail.

In the meantime I suggest ignoring those who say you need a great deal of experience before you should use fits that differ from the norm. Experimenting with different fits in different situations will give you much more experience with different modules, different flying styles than simply flying the same fit over and over again. Also, no serious PvP corp actually pays attention to your K:D ratio.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#23 - 2011-12-21 13:39:49 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Since most people on these forums only PvP in EFT, Schmata I would suggest joining our Public Channel "The Tuskers Public Channel" and showing your fits there. We (along with all our guests, most of them red) will be able to give you actual critique rather than simply telling it's a failfit because it deviates from the norm. Also you might pick up a fair few things there - we discuss PvP pretty much exclusively and in great detail.

In the meantime I suggest ignoring those who say you need a great deal of experience before you should use fits that differ from the norm. Experimenting with different fits in different situations will give you much more experience with different modules, different flying styles than simply flying the same fit over and over again. Also, no serious PvP corp actually pays attention to your K:D ratio.


Thanks for invitation but I already joined your public channel last week or so. If that's ok next time I log in I will ask for evaluation of my "weirdo" fits. Or if you have time and/or will here is fit that stood against Vengeance for quite a long time before he broke my shields. That's only one of my experiments but I like shield regen rate (omni dmg like 43 dps or sth like this)

As I said earlier great amount of my fights I had with Tuskers in Hevrice and everytime I was pleasantly surprised by help and info each and every Tusker shared after fight. One time I lost my rifter to a firetail and after talking to opposing Tusker about that ship and fit he used I bought this hull and modules just to lose it few hours later. Just for lolz and little bit of practice.

Regarding killboard stats I don't care about them and definitely don't care what others may say about them :)

Invalid signature format
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#24 - 2011-12-21 14:13:51 UTC
I used to fly this around catching noob rifters for the lols. 145dps at 20km. It.... eh... kinda worked / kinda sucked.

[Federation Navy Comet, Derp What Tank]

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
[Empty High slot]

Warp Disruptor II
Phased Monopropellant I Hydrazine Boosters
Peripheral Weapon Navigation Diameter

Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I


Hobgoblin II x3
Warrior II x3

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#25 - 2011-12-21 15:40:20 UTC
Reg: your Rifter fit..

Carry more than just RF PP - carry RF EMP/Fusion (for damage selection) and Barrage (extra range) as well. As for your fit you are effectively giving up your ability to keep prey in place for an improved tank. Unfortunately, I can't really see where this would work unless you are fighting on a station in high sec or in a duel.

Extenders work better on Frig hulls than Purgers due to the low base shield capacity. Also, you're giving up 4 "main" slots for your tank - 2 micros in the lows and the 2 MSEs. IMO this isn't worth it, specially when you can no longer fit a Damage Control.

In this instance, I can't really see where this would surpass a bog standard Shield Rifter, sorry.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#26 - 2011-12-21 16:07:09 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Reg: your Rifter fit..


Honest, informational and exactly what I would expect as a review of my fit. Thanks a lot.

That was used in a duel after I simply asked on local who will help me to test my fit.

Now I fly different fit that goes with 147 dps but has minimal tank, so it is all about gank, basically just opposite idea to this double shielded weirdo. Will it work? Don't know, gonna test it either in a arranged duel or during lowsec roam. I suspect fast death from bigger ships/more skilled/more experienced opponents but, once again, pure lolz are worth it

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Kulsto Ribro
Deep Space Legacy
#27 - 2011-12-21 16:46:11 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Reg: your Rifter fit..

I'd also advise against passive shield regen for PVP. You used 1 module and 2 rigs to improve it, but in nearly all PVP scenarios you will encounter in a rifter, those will give you much less HP than a couple of extender rigs.
The Rattlesnake is IMHO the only ship capable of effectively using passive shield regen outside of PVE.

By the way, you have chosen the right race for experimenting, most minmatar ships can be fitted in different and workable ways. Their slot layout let most ships be armor or shield tanked without being totally gimped. The only major limiting factor will be the capacitor.
If someday you want a change, take a look at the Myrm and it's big brother Domi. They are awesome to fit weird things.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#28 - 2011-12-21 17:01:16 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Reg: your Rifter fit..


Honest, informational and exactly what I would expect as a review of my fit. Thanks a lot.

That was used in a duel after I simply asked on local who will help me to test my fit.

Now I fly different fit that goes with 147 dps but has minimal tank, so it is all about gank, basically just opposite idea to this double shielded weirdo. Will it work? Don't know, gonna test it either in a arranged duel or during lowsec roam. I suspect fast death from bigger ships/more skilled/more experienced opponents but, once again, pure lolz are worth it

The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.

Looking at your rifter fit for example, there are several things that some pvp experience would have taught you that would have made that fit better:
Purgers and SPRs are worthless in pvp. Straight up shield buffer is better in 99% of the fights you'll get into. Without diving into the viability of the fit, popping it in to eft shows me about 4k EHP and 43 dps tank. Swapping out your recharge mods with buffer increasing mods shows me 9k shields with a 38 DPS tank. (Again, not getting into whether the fit is even viable)
This means that using the same number of slots, you can gain 5k shields at the expense of 5 DPS tank, meaning the extra passive regen is only worth it in fights that last 16 minutes or so of non-stop shooting.

Then we get into the problem of no tackle.Oh dear. You have very little DPS, even if you had perfect skills, and without a point your opponent is free to leave whenever he/she feels like it. It's a rule that took me a long time to wrap my head around in eve: tanking is not a role. If you can't even hold things down while you whittle away at their health, your superior tank means nothing.

The biggest problem with what you're doing though is that you're essentially reinventing the wheel.

You're randomly picking fits that may as well just be chosen via random number generators, and eventually you will end up with something that works, only after months and months of losses, when you could have had the fit handed to you had you just asked someone. You then take that knowledge, and use it to change the fit into something more niche/odd. It sort of reminds me of those little box cars that everyone was fiddling with last year (boxcar2d.com if you've never seen it) You had the option of setting how quickly you wanted the cars to mutate, and the best way to get a good one was to set the mutation rate fairly low most of the time. It would gradually find the best car it could with the pieces it had (the standard pvp fit) and make light adjustments to it. If you set the mutation rate to 100%, all of the cars it spat out would die horribly in seconds, just like your rifters.

Trying to fit ships for pvp, when you don't actually KNOW how to pvp, is just not going to work, and eventually you'll get sick of losing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2011-12-21 17:08:23 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.


I don't agree with this. Just because its unconventional doesn't mean that he won't learn anything from it (win or lose). I think this ( http://www.fadedgiant.net/html/edison_thomas_alva_quotes.htm ) is an appropriate page of quotes about this conversation.

Here's a few:
- "There's a better way to do it. Find it."
- "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless."
- "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work."

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#30 - 2011-12-21 17:47:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.


I don't agree with this. Just because its unconventional doesn't mean that he won't learn anything from it (win or lose). I think this ( http://www.fadedgiant.net/html/edison_thomas_alva_quotes.htm ) is an appropriate page of quotes about this conversation.

Here's a few:
- "There's a better way to do it. Find it."
- "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless."
- "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work."

-Liang

The problem with that line of thought is that it takes a looong time to try those 700 ways. And if we're going for quotes to explain our points of view I prefer:

"Learning without thought is labour lost, thought without learning is perilous."
-Confucius

The former being people who never try anything new with setups, and the latter being the OP.
Knowing that something doesn't work, without understanding WHY it doesn't means it will take you much, much longer than most to grasp the concepts of pvp, since for all the good it will do you you may as well just pick your fits by throwing darts at pictures of mods on your wall.

That second quote of yours also made me giggle, given your view on logis and TL bonuses Lol
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#31 - 2011-12-21 18:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Now I see why my double MSE fit is weak and probably I won't use it any time soon, if ever.

That being said I doubt that just asking for reliable newbie fit and get it from vets would prevented me from reinventing this wheel. Putting something together in EveHQ, something that seems ok and than log in and take it into space. ISKies lost on failfits don't matter because I don't play SpaceTycoon and it is not about earning money, even imaginary ones.

Even failfits are source of knowledge about game. It is not about that you can explain to me why shield regen is bad or sth diferent, it is about me seeing this failure in action and about seeing what is happening to a ship and to his tank when something bigger or just better punches a lot of oomph into piece of crap "reinvented" by me.

Once again, thank you all for this discussion, always a pleasure to get some troll-free responses :)

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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#32 - 2011-12-21 18:19:46 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Now I see why my double MSE fit is weak and probably I won't use it any time soon, if ever.

That being said I doubt that just asking for reliable newbie fit and get it from vets would prevented me from reinventing this wheel. Putting something together in EveHQ, something that seems ok and than log in and take it into space. ISKies lost on failfits don't matter because I don't play SpaceTycoon and it is not about earning money, even imaginary ones.

Even failfits are source of knowledge about game. It is not about that you can explain to me why shield regen is bad or sth diferent, it is about me seeing this failure in action and about seeing what is happening to a ship and to his tank when something bigger or just better punches a lot of oomph into piece of crap "reinvented" by me.

Here's the thing: You even demonstrated this point by saying that you were going to go full gank on your next rifter. You knew that the dual MSE was a bad fit, but you didn't know WHY. There may well be a dual MSE fit that's actually viable, and you'd never know, because you looked at this one specific fit, found that it sucked, and moved on to a vastly different fit, never once seeing if there was a fit that was almost like yours, but not quite, that worked. The dual MSE jaguar for example is a rather nice ship, if you're looking for something tankier. But when you have the skills/isk to fly one, you won't, because you'll think back to how poorly the dual MSE rifter did, assume that this was because the premise behind the ship was flawed, and ignore other similar options based on that faulty belief.

It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#33 - 2011-12-21 18:34:49 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

Here's the thing: You even demonstrated this point by saying that you were going to go full gank on your next rifter. You knew that the dual MSE was a bad fit, but you didn't know WHY. There may well be a dual MSE fit that's actually viable, and you'd never know, because you looked at this one specific fit, found that it sucked, and moved on to a vastly different fit, never once seeing if there was a fit that was almost like yours, but not quite, that worked. The dual MSE jaguar for example is a rather nice ship, if you're looking for something tankier. But when you have the skills/isk to fly one, you won't, because you'll think back to how poorly the dual MSE rifter did, assume that this was because the premise behind the ship was flawed, and ignore other similar options based on that faulty belief.

It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it.


Well, I dare to argue that I am fully aware that jag is another ship and while based on the same hull its fittings are different and problems with rifters won't apply to their t2 brothers.

Jeez, it is like you would say: "you painted a rock with gold paint, you failed to sell it so next time you will have actual gold nugget you will remember previous fake-gold failure and you won't even try to sell it."

I am a newbie but for f**k sake not an idiot.

To be honest currently I have 3 rifters fitted and it is not that failure with shields put me in completely opposite camp of full gank. I just wanted to see how much dps I can squeeze out of my skills and modules. After all it is not like die from being curious, last time I checked it was a game :)

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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#34 - 2011-12-21 18:42:40 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:


Jeez, it is like you would say: "you painted a rock with gold paint, you failed to sell it so next time you will have actual gold nugget you will remember previous fake-gold failure and you won't even try to sell it."

I am a newbie but for f**k sake not an idiot.

To be honest currently I have 3 rifters fitted and it is not that failure with shields put me in completely opposite camp of full gank. I just wanted to see how much dps I can squeeze out of my skills and modules. After all it is not like die from being curious, last time I checked it was a game :)

And what happens when you stumble into a fit that could work wonderfully, with just a few slight modifications, but decide instead on something totally different because your version of the fit didn't work? As for the being a newbie but not being an idiot comment, you actually remind me a lot of this comic:
http://xkcd.com/675/

You're looking to revolutionize something that you don't even properly understand, and the odds of you ever managing to do so are somewhere between slim and none. Learn how to pvp, THEN change the way people do it by coming up with kickass fits that differ from the norm.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#35 - 2011-12-21 18:54:54 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

As for the being a newbie but not being an idiot comment, you actually remind me a lot of this comic:
http://xkcd.com/675/

You're looking to revolutionize something that you don't even properly understand, and the odds of you ever managing to do so are somewhere between slim and none. Learn how to pvp, THEN change the way people do it by coming up with kickass fits that differ from the norm.


I like your quick XKCD reference linky but by all means I am not trying to revolutionize rifter fits I just asked if uncommon / experimental / unusual / weird fits have any value in pvp. That includes also silly situations when you have no tackle and you just hope that your opponent just forgets to warp out :)

And I think I already had my answer and it was more or less positive so weird fits can be useful but in very narrow range of situations.

Invalid signature format
equincu ocha
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-12-21 19:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: equincu ocha
Cambarus wrote:
It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it.


If everyone thought like that can you imagine how boring EVE would be.

PODLA drakes wouldn't be around because missiles suck for pvp and drakes are only good as bricks.
No one would fly nano harbingers because they are aren't supposed to be nano ships.
There wouldn't be any brawling intys because that's the assault ships role.
Rokh would only be useful as snipers because of it's range bonus
Since you can't pvp with only two mids punishers and enyo's should only be mission ships
Celestis and Belacose's would never get used because they are jokes

The list goes on an on, some of the best fits are ones that don't look like they are proper fits or roles for the given ship.

I believe that thinking and learning for yourself can be the best way to start out with pvp, without everyone else forcing there own ideals of what proper pvp is you have a better chance of finding out how you really like to fly, and at the end of the day that's what it's really about.

Also to answer the OP, yes, experimental fit can have a real value in pvp, most of the common fits people talk about started out as experimental at some point, hell, some of my favorite fits are ones people would call experimental

Baby seal walked into a club
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-12-21 21:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
Rifters are fun to work with that's for sure. I've actually worked with em a good bit myself. I'm currently working with a high tracking speed rifter (somewhere between .7 and .8 tracking, can't remember exactly) using 125 ACIIs with RF Depleted Uranium and RF Titanium Sabot. Both ammo types have a bonus to tracking, so put that with a tracking enhancer + Gyro in your low..... Makes for interesting stuff!

Haven't 1v1'd with it yet, but it has worked well in small fleets so far....

*edit* And anyhow, these are RIFTERS we're talking about here! How much of a loss can it be if you learn from each one?Question

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#38 - 2011-12-21 21:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Suleiman Shouaa
Nm
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#39 - 2011-12-24 02:44:03 UTC
"Experimental" fittings work, within some constrains...
For example the arguement "will a target painter make my frig track better enough so that I will sacrifice tackle to fit one in my Comet or ANY frig", is not a real argument...

Experiment with stuff with detrimental effects on what you do...aka "will i range tank another turret frig better using AB/Scram/Web or AB/Scram/TD combos on my rifter or merlin etc" are worth experimenting with, simply cause skill and tactics (but also luck with every opponent) might prove the argument either way for different pilots.

Trying to "re-invent" pvp, or going 100% away from proven solutions is not experimenting. It's stubbornness, and most ppl usually fail horribly doing it.

In eve you need patience, actual skills (aka more than experience and kills but more of spherical grasp of the game mechanics and the abilities of the different ships out there), and off course a decent wallet with isk to burn through and proper skill points invested here and there, so that finally you can stay behind a properly fitted ship.

Proper fit = the one that does the job. It might be a fit dedicated to a niche role, yet if you can put yourself consistently in the position to exploit that niche, you are fine.

Unfortunately you need all of those 4/5 factors present all the time...if you lose one (or lack the other), the rest won't suffice.

These "experimental" fits, usually are "all-over-the-place", used outside their niche (if any real niche) with players that either cannot identify it, or cannot put themselves into advantageous situations before engaging (aka picking their fights).

Are there crazy ideas and crazy fits that work wonders in the right hands? Yes.
But "Crazy" (e.g. Nano Drake in 2008 or whenever Naxias came up with the Podla Drake) ideas are not the same with the "stupid" ideas that people come up with daydreaming.

Think skyscrapers: Architects and Engineers push the envelope every day. Taller, leaner, leaning more, lighter/more efficient etc...
They do that improving the mix and application of proven materials, with Steel and concrete being their basis.
More or less concrete to steel ratio is one thing, doing without either is not "applicable"...being different to be different is ofc "Cheaper" in EVE...no lives (or huge $ amounts) at risk. But learn what's to tamper with when you want to go higher, and what's not. At some point, new "game mechanics" might change the use or redefine the material properties of steel, concrete or both. Till then...

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#40 - 2011-12-24 03:50:19 UTC
I used a Tormenter in a 1v1 once... it wasn't pretty.
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