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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1141 - 2015-02-18 18:45:40 UTC
AFK cloaking is the equivalent of Shrodinger's PvPer. He is neither afk or active until he decloaks. Therein lies the issue for those people in local. Removing local does nothing to alleviate this issue, as it would only add another layer of unknowability to the situation. My suggestion to people who would like local removed would be to go live in wormholes. Your wish is then granted! Of course, we all know W-space people are a special bunch, so it might not be such a smart idea to turn nullsec into an extension of said space.

Psychologically, a cloaked neutral/hostile in system will depress gameplay in that system due to the unknown potential for the hot-drop. It doesn't matter if it is one person or one person with 200 people waiting to jump in; because it is unknown, the risk is the same. Unless of course the pilot in question is a known cyno-baiter, in which case the risk is elevated.

This creates the situation that both sides must now wait for the other to show their hand, and prepare in whatever way they choose. The imbalance is of course that the initiative lies completely in the hands of the cloaker. Because he is at no point in danger of being uncloaked in the vastness of space, they can choose to exercise their initiative soon-ish, or a week later. The effect of this is that locals would have to stay in a state of perpetual preparedness, or leave. Either will result in the eventual emptying of the system, as a constant state of readiness is mentally taxing and not maintainable long-term. AFK cloaking does not carry this same burden.

The argument that people have other means of being completely safe (in a pos or docked up) is completely irrelevant to this conversation and should be disregarded as such. That is a mechanic of purely offensive/defensive warfare. Especially in null, where sitting in a pos or outpost is no guarantee of eternal safety. Poses can and have been taken down, outposts can be flipped. Additionally, sov mechanics are apparently being re-examined, so who know what will happen with all this.

Cloaking in general is overpowered when we look at things like a handful of stealth bombers annihilating entire battleship groups. The only counter to this is to have 100 people in dictors with another 200 in fast ships covering every possible square inch of space around the fleet. And let's face it, those ships don't last long against ishtars or tengus from 100km away.

Personally, I don't see cloaking off-grid to be an issue. You can move around undetected, sure, get limited intel from d-scan, but you can't do anything offensive/defensively either.

But on-grid, you should be at risk. And I'm not talking about the chance of being decloaked, because on a standard grid (r=250km) there is a 1 in 1.95 million chance that someone happens across your spot (r=2km) on grid. Even less if you are actively avoiding them. Stealth ships are the space equivalent of submarines. And we need some space equivalent to sonar.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1142 - 2015-02-18 18:48:30 UTC
Quote:

I like analogies too.

Your spawn camping one seems a bit too oversimplified, as it ignores how easy most such campers are to be rid of.
(FPS often has one class vulnerable to certain things, like a rock paper scissors dynamic)


That's good. I like them too. They help to illistrate things, like how I was talking about the mentality of the player and not the mechanics of game play.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1143 - 2015-02-18 19:31:06 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

I like analogies too.

Your spawn camping one seems a bit too oversimplified, as it ignores how easy most such campers are to be rid of.
(FPS often has one class vulnerable to certain things, like a rock paper scissors dynamic)


That's good. I like them too. They help to illistrate things, like how I was talking about the mentality of the player and not the mechanics of game play.

That really does not redeem the analogy you made.

Spawn camping in that context is a cheap way to get kills, usually in a scenario where game design was shortsighted.
By the time the newly spawned player get's his bearings, the hostile has already started killing them.
Poor sportsmanship, I feel.

While I understand from the PvE side, AFK Cloaking might seem zero effort.... that is not accurate objectively, and certainly not to the cloaked player in question.
If you wanted easy kills, this is the exact opposite of what you would want to do.
It is time consuming.
If you actually want kills you need to convince the targets you are not present. (No FPS equivalent to that, as they often must believe you quit playing before exposing themselves)

Now, if you are not able to take the time, and you have reason to believe the targets are competent enough to not screw up....
DON'T BOTHER going to the system at all.
They will simply dock up or get safe the moment you appear in local, which is often before you even finish loading the system.
The cloaked player cannot avoid this obstacle, so if both sides perform flawlessly, the PvE player will always get safe.
Optionally, they will re-ship into fighting hulls that you could have fought already at that gate camp, if that was going to satisfy your goals for the session.

Nothing cheap or easy for that cloaking player, it seems.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1144 - 2015-02-18 19:51:19 UTC
Nikk wrote:

That really does not redeem the analogy you made.


No offense but WTF are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me my own personal view is wrong? The analogy I made was about player mentality, not mechanics and I said it was my own view. So WTF? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1145 - 2015-02-18 20:01:53 UTC
Wow... If I did not have direct experience from both sides on this, I might have mistaken this for an objective summary of this play style.
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
AFK cloaking is the equivalent of Shrodinger's PvPer. He is neither afk or active until he decloaks. Therein lies the issue for those people in local. Removing local does nothing to alleviate this issue, as it would only add another layer of unknowability to the situation. My suggestion to people who would like local removed would be to go live in wormholes. Your wish is then granted! Of course, we all know W-space people are a special bunch, so it might not be such a smart idea to turn nullsec into an extension of said space.

Nikk Narrel's response:
Wormholes? You really threw that old fishbait into there?
That has been debunked in many threads, as the differences between wormholes and regular space are meaningfully far more than a difference in local chat's function.
I would drop this point, unless you want the lecture on it.

Terraniel Aurelius:
Psychologically, a cloaked neutral/hostile in system will depress gameplay in that system due to the unknown potential for the hot-drop. It doesn't matter if it is one person or one person with 200 people waiting to jump in; because it is unknown, the risk is the same. Unless of course the pilot in question is a known cyno-baiter, in which case the risk is elevated.

Nikk Narrel's response:
Unknown potential... the way you throw that around, one might think that unknown potential was trivial in other areas of the game.
Try this little reality check:
In high sec, unless you know the names directly, these unknown potentials could appear to be no more than harmless neutrals... until they spring a gank on you.
In a wormhole, it is entirely possible that an entire fleet can be cloaked, and on grid with you, ready to pounce.
Noone is technically paranoid in low sec, because the expectation that everyone is out to get you is not a delusion there.

Terraniel Aurelius:
This creates the situation that both sides must now wait for the other to show their hand, and prepare in whatever way they choose. The imbalance is of course that the initiative lies completely in the hands of the cloaker. Because he is at no point in danger of being uncloaked in the vastness of space, they can choose to exercise their initiative soon-ish, or a week later. The effect of this is that locals would have to stay in a state of perpetual preparedness, or leave. Either will result in the eventual emptying of the system, as a constant state of readiness is mentally taxing and not maintainable long-term. AFK cloaking does not carry this same burden.

Nikk Narrel's response:
The initiative lies with the cloaker... really? disengenuous
The initiative lies with whoever takes the chance on acting.
If the PvE player takes it, the cloaker does not know what they are fitted with, or prepared to do.
All that cloaked player knows, is that this target has had the time and opportunity to prepare a response, and they did not need to compromise their fittings to get past a gate camp first either.
Just like many PvE players refuse to take a chance, a cloaked player who is convinced they cannot handle a target won't take the chance either.

Terraniel Aurelius:
The argument that people have other means of being completely safe (in a pos or docked up) is completely irrelevant to this conversation and should be disregarded as such. That is a mechanic of purely offensive/defensive warfare. Especially in null, where sitting in a pos or outpost is no guarantee of eternal safety. Poses can and have been taken down, outposts can be flipped. Additionally, sov mechanics are apparently being re-examined, so who know what will happen with all this.

Nikk Narrel's response:
How many cloaked ships have come into a system, and flipped the sov to take over an Outpost, or taken down a POS?
I have yet to see it happen once, so I must say I am jealous that you have experience seeing these things which until now, I thought only a fleet could manage....

Terraniel Aurelius:
Cloaking in general is overpowered when we look at things like a handful of stealth bombers annihilating entire battleship groups. The only counter to this is to have 100 people in dictors with another 200 in fast ships covering every possible square inch of space around the fleet. And let's face it, those ships don't last long against ishtars or tengus from 100km away.

Nikk Narrel's response:
A handful of SBs annihilating entire battleship groups? I must get the fittings for that setup....
You have opened my eyes to a new universe of possibilities.
Meanwhile, back to the discussion about AFK cloaking, if you don't mind....

Terraniel Aurelius:
Personally, I don't see cloaking off-grid to be an issue. You can move around undetected, sure, get limited intel from d-scan, but you can't do anything offensive/defensively either.

But on-grid, you should be at risk. And I'm not talking about the chance of being decloaked, because on a standard grid (r=250km) there is a 1 in 1.95 million chance that someone happens across your spot (r=2km) on grid. Even less if you are actively avoiding them. Stealth ships are the space equivalent of submarines. And we need some space equivalent to sonar.

Nikk Narrel's response:
I'll trade you for the comparable attack mechanism that the submarines had.
Two torpedoes, maybe three for the average military vessel?
One good shot for a typical merchant ship?
And the targets usually had no idea a hostile craft was anywhere in the area?
Let's make a deal like that.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1146 - 2015-02-18 20:05:21 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk wrote:

That really does not redeem the analogy you made.


No offense but WTF are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me my own personal view is wrong? The analogy I made was about player mentality, not mechanics and I said it was my own view. So WTF? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

The FPS spawn camper is doing it for the cheap kills.

It is the epitome of low effort gaming, by taking advantage of an expected weakness of the game's design.

An AFK cloaker is not getting any kills, by comparison, because all the targets know how to avoid him, and only take risks when they believe he is either bluffing or not playing directly at all.

Hardly a reasonable comparison, in my opinion, but you are free to believe in flying spaghetti monsters too, if it suits your fancy.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1147 - 2015-02-18 20:07:35 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
How exactly is afk camping bullying someone?


I dont think it really is. Though I can see how it could easily frustrate people enough to move back to High sec.


The weak shall be purged.
Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1148 - 2015-02-18 20:27:47 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Wormholes? You really threw that old fishbait into there?
That has been debunked in many threads, as the differences between wormholes and regular space are meaningfully far more than a difference in local chat's function.
I would drop this point, unless you want the lecture on it.


Obviously it's different. However, removing local would not help inject null with any kind of life. It would only increase the security of cloaking ships. Combine that with not even being able to detect recons on d-scan, it would be a completely overpowered mechanic. The difference in mechanics between wormhole space and k-space is what makes cloaking in wormholes not overpowered. You can lecture until you are blue in the face. Trying to argue that removing local is a "good trade" for nerfing AFK cloaking is a "disingenuous" argument and a crappy tit-for-tat sales tactic.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Unknown potential... the way you throw that around, one might think that unknown potential was trivial in other areas of the game.
Try this little reality check:
In high sec, unless you know the names directly, these unknown potentials could appear to be no more than harmless neutrals... until they spring a gank on you.
In a wormhole, it is entirely possible that an entire fleet can be cloaked, and on grid with you, ready to pounce.
Noone is technically paranoid in low sec, because the expectation that everyone is out to get you is not a delusion there.


Again - you are arguing trying to draw parrallels from other game areas, one of which you already pointed out as " the differences between wormholes and regular space are meaningfully far more than a difference in local chat's function". Essentially you just contradicted and countered yourself.

I was speaking from an objective point of view of what I have observed from both sides of this issue. It is invariably the same result. You can try to argue all you want, but this is an observation, not an opinion.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
The initiative lies with the cloaker... really? disengenuous
The initiative lies with whoever takes the chance on acting.
If the PvE player takes it, the cloaker does not know what they are fitted with, or prepared to do.
All that cloaked player knows, is that this target has had the time and opportunity to prepare a response, and they did not need to compromise their fittings to get past a gate camp first either.
Just like many PvE players refuse to take a chance, a cloaked player who is convinced they cannot handle a target won't take the chance either.


I'm not sure that linking random words is considered a valid argument in any kind of logic. Nor is it even relevant to the point you seem to be trying to make. Unless you are accusing me of lying?

The initiative lies solely with the cloaky camper, because the defenders have no action they can take. Only reactions. They can, as I will reiterate, be in a constant state of readiness, or leave. And as I also previously stated: "Either will result in the eventual emptying of the system, as a constant state of readiness is mentally taxing and not maintainable long-term. AFK cloaking does not carry this same burden." You have neither addressed nor countered this argument.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
How many cloaked ships have come into a system, and flipped the sov to take over an Outpost, or taken down a POS?
I have yet to see it happen once, so I must say I am jealous that you have experience seeing these things which until now, I thought only a fleet could manage....

A handful of SBs annihilating entire battleship groups? I must get the fittings for that setup....
You have opened my eyes to a new universe of possibilities.
Meanwhile, back to the discussion about AFK cloaking, if you don't mind....


I hope you are missing the point of what I was trying to say, instead of just being snide and disingenuous again.


Nikk Narrel wrote:
I'll trade you for the comparable attack mechanism that the submarines had.
Two torpedoes, maybe three for the average military vessel?
One good shot for a typical merchant ship?
And the targets usually had no idea a hostile craft was anywhere in the area?
Let's make a deal like that.


First off, submarines have multiple torpedo tubes, with multiple reloads for each. I'll give you an equivalent mechanic: bombs. Oh wait, we already have that. Oh, and you have no idea where stealth bombers are? Check. I guess it's decided. We do something about AFK cloaking since we meet both requirements of your list.
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1149 - 2015-02-18 21:01:07 UTC
These topics have been done to death and always boil down to the same thing every single time this discussion comes up: AFK ratters/bot ratters want to be able to rat with absolutely 100% no chance that they will ever, ever, ever, be at any risk whatsoever.

If I jump my hunting ship into a system, every single person ratting will immediately dock up/pos up and stay there. Not only am I on a watchlist for the entire game so they know I'm online immediately with a handy pop-up alert. But local also tells ratters I'm there immediately. I would imagine by now the ones not actually botting are all using some form of a script that alerts them with an audio alert the second a non-blue jumps into local. Those exist and are dead easy to setup.

From there it's a simple pattern. If I say in system longer than 15 minutes the bot/afk ratter immediately logs off. Waits an hour, logs back in to check if I'm still there. Eve tells him immediately I am, he logs back off. Repeat a few times. Then somewhere inbetween that ratter shows up here to make an angry thread about how cloaks ruin his ability to risk-free rat forever (and here we are).

Meanwhile on the side of someone who wants to PVP rather than have 0.0 full of afk ratting bots, I'm sitting in my ship cloaked, all alone. In your system. Waiting. To 'counter' this, step outside your comfort zone for 2 minutes and play the game. Fit a bait ratting ship that will fight me when I decloak to tackle you. Get some buddies together and form a defense/bait fleet. Or hell, if you're that intimidated by one guy in local that I can shut your entire corporation out of ratting in a system, go somewhere else. Your options are limitless in eve. But instead... whine thread #infinity about how afk cloaking is the 'problem'. Not your utter refusal to play the game any way but afk/bot ratting.

And yes I know this is the official thread for cloaking and how it's ruining PVE, but I feel the hundreds of angry ratters in the past are here in spirit, formed together like some really boring voltron, to whine that King Zarkon isn't fighting fair.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1150 - 2015-02-18 21:15:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel:Wormholes? You really threw that old fishbait into there?
That has been debunked in many threads, as the differences between wormholes and regular space are meaningfully far more than a difference in local chat's function.
I would drop this point, unless you want the lecture on it.

Terraniel Aurelius:
Obviously it's different. However, removing local would not help inject null with any kind of life. It would only increase the security of cloaking ships. Combine that with not even being able to detect recons on d-scan, it would be a completely overpowered mechanic. The difference in mechanics between wormhole space and k-space is what makes cloaking in wormholes not overpowered. You can lecture until you are blue in the face. Trying to argue that removing local is a "good trade" for nerfing AFK cloaking is a "disingenuous" argument and a crappy tit-for-tat sales tactic.

Nikk Narrel's response:
The mechanics cancel each other out, when considering the logic.
The non-covert cloaking recon, (you mentioned the one immune to d-scan), can operate in both theaters.
A cyno can bring in several ships, yes. In a wormhole, those same ships can already be present, with equal tactical value.
Neither can be known by the opponent before they are revealed.

Nikk Narrel:Unknown potential... the way you throw that around, one might think that unknown potential was trivial in other areas of the game.
Try this little reality check:
In high sec, unless you know the names directly, these unknown potentials could appear to be no more than harmless neutrals... until they spring a gank on you.
In a wormhole, it is entirely possible that an entire fleet can be cloaked, and on grid with you, ready to pounce.
Noone is technically paranoid in low sec, because the expectation that everyone is out to get you is not a delusion there.

Terraniel Aurelius:
Again - you are arguing trying to draw parrallels from other game areas, one of which you already pointed out as " the differences between wormholes and regular space are meaningfully far more than a difference in local chat's function". Essentially you just contradicted and countered yourself.

I was speaking from an objective point of view of what I have observed from both sides of this issue. It is invariably the same result. You can try to argue all you want, but this is an observation, not an opinion.

Nikk Narrel's response:
You flatter yourself, when you claim objectivity here.
Suggesting that PvE players lack the capability to plan ambushes, or fit beyond the scope of a covert ship's combat abilities, these imply a simple mindedness on the part of PvE players which I take exception to.
I AM a PvE player. I not only plan ambushes, but I prepare to attack opposing PvE resources as well.
If it weren't for the occasional cloaked ship appearing in deep null, you wouldn't see anything but NPCs.

Nikk Narrel:The initiative lies with the cloaker... really? disengenuous
The initiative lies with whoever takes the chance on acting.
If the PvE player takes it, the cloaker does not know what they are fitted with, or prepared to do.
All that cloaked player knows, is that this target has had the time and opportunity to prepare a response, and they did not need to compromise their fittings to get past a gate camp first either.
Just like many PvE players refuse to take a chance, a cloaked player who is convinced they cannot handle a target won't take the chance either.

Terraniel Aurelius:
I'm not sure that linking random words is considered a valid argument in any kind of logic. Nor is it even relevant to the point you seem to be trying to make. Unless you are accusing me of lying?

The initiative lies solely with the cloaky camper, because the defenders have no action they can take. Only reactions. They can, as I will reiterate, be in a constant state of readiness, or leave. And as I also previously stated: "Either will result in the eventual emptying of the system, as a constant state of readiness is mentally taxing and not maintainable long-term. AFK cloaking does not carry this same burden." You have neither addressed nor countered this argument.

Nikk Narrel's response:
You should have clicked the link. It might have helped.
Here it means: You should already know that much of what you are saying and suggesting, is not representing the situation in an objective manner.
You pretend you can't see a relation to local chat.
You pretend you believe that PvE players are helpless, and cannot come up with tactical countermeasures.
You pretend that a SB by itself is comparable to a historic naval vessel, notorious for it's ability to sink enemy shipping solo.
If I meant to accuse you of lying, I would be far more direct.

And seriously, only two options for the PvE player?
AFK Cloaking has no burden, in the sense you describe, because you are taking the lack of effort involved with being genuinely AFK, and connecting it to the benefit of watching events carefully in the system.
Which is it?
Is the cloaker harmless since they aren't even paying attention, for zero effort....
OR
Is the cloaker stressing themselves with constant patrol patterns, watching all the PvE sites they know of in the system, so they can meet the expectation of an ambush. If a cyno is involved, then add one additional pilot for each expected ship.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1151 - 2015-02-18 21:19:59 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:

Meanwhile on the side of someone who wants to PVP rather than have 0.0 full of afk ratting bots, I'm sitting in my ship cloaked, all alone. In your system. Waiting. To 'counter' this, step outside your comfort zone for 2 minutes and play the game. Fit a bait ratting ship that will fight me when I decloak to tackle you. Get some buddies together and form a defense/bait fleet. Or hell, if you're that intimidated by one guy in local that I can shut your entire corporation out of ratting in a system, go somewhere else. Your options are limitless in eve. But instead... whine thread #infinity about how afk cloaking is the 'problem'. Not your utter refusal to play the game any way but afk/bot ratting.


People already do this. PVPers will leave when presented with a fight they feel they cant win. Which is funny cause they complain about PVE players doing the exact same thing.

Oh well. Welcome to the thread.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1152 - 2015-02-18 21:25:45 UTC
Nikk Narrel:How many cloaked ships have come into a system, and flipped the sov to take over an Outpost, or taken down a POS?
I have yet to see it happen once, so I must say I am jealous that you have experience seeing these things which until now, I thought only a fleet could manage....

A handful of SBs annihilating entire battleship groups? I must get the fittings for that setup....
You have opened my eyes to a new universe of possibilities.
Meanwhile, back to the discussion about AFK cloaking, if you don't mind....

Terraniel Aurelius:
I hope you are missing the point of what I was trying to say, instead of just being snide and disingenuous again.

Nikk Narrel's response:
Disingenuous implies being misleading, rather than responding to misleading statements.
Your use of the concept that Outposts could be flipped, and POS taken down, have no bearing to this discussion, as it takes significantly more than a few cloaked ships to accomplish that.

Nikk Narrel:I'll trade you for the comparable attack mechanism that the submarines had.
Two torpedoes, maybe three for the average military vessel?
One good shot for a typical merchant ship?
And the targets usually had no idea a hostile craft was anywhere in the area?
Let's make a deal like that.

Terraniel Aurelius:
First off, submarines have multiple torpedo tubes, with multiple reloads for each. I'll give you an equivalent mechanic: bombs. Oh wait, we already have that. Oh, and you have no idea where stealth bombers are? Check. I guess it's decided. We do something about AFK cloaking since we meet both requirements of your list.

Nikk Narrel's response:
Show me a solo bomber capable of taking out an exhumer or barge in a single pass.
No?
How about one that can take down a T2 cruiser, or battlecruiser, or battleship. You know, typical ratting boats for null.
Again, No?
I want at least a bomber that has multiple bomb launchers then.... still no?
I feel let down.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1153 - 2015-02-18 21:26:11 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:

Meanwhile on the side of someone who wants to PVP rather than have 0.0 full of afk ratting bots, I'm sitting in my ship cloaked, all alone. In your system. Waiting. To 'counter' this, step outside your comfort zone for 2 minutes and play the game. Fit a bait ratting ship that will fight me when I decloak to tackle you. Get some buddies together and form a defense/bait fleet. Or hell, if you're that intimidated by one guy in local that I can shut your entire corporation out of ratting in a system, go somewhere else. Your options are limitless in eve. But instead... whine thread #infinity about how afk cloaking is the 'problem'. Not your utter refusal to play the game any way but afk/bot ratting.


People already do this. PVPers will leave when presented with a fight they feel they cant win. Which is funny cause they complain about PVE players doing the exact same thing.

Oh well. Welcome to the thread.





Far be it for me to argue with a PVE Alt (God I hope you are anyway) who has 0 actual kills on his kill board and no losses but a few haulers, but doesn't your circular broken argument there completely invalidate this entire thread? "PVPers will leave when presented with a fight they can't win." PROBLEM SOLVED THREAD OVER. You just -made- my argument for me and ruined any argument for AFK Cloaking being a bad thing. I'm sitting in your space alone, you nut up and find 10 of your friends and come out to run me off. Now I'm gone. Go back to AFK ratting. Keep some of those friends with you to make sure I don't come back. Look at that, not only are you all doing something in the game besides afk-ratting, but you almost got some PVP, and the dastardly afk cloaker is gone.
Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1154 - 2015-02-18 22:04:18 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
blah blah blah.


I'm sorry. This is too funny. You are so worried that someone will take away the power of your broken afk mechanic that you argue circles around yourself. It's not even worth having a discussion if you just want to set up straw man arguments and contradict yourself using myopic and narrowminded analysis of the situation. There are so many things wrong with all your 'responses' that I can't even be bothered to try to point them out.

GeneralDisturbed wrote:
Meanwhile on the side of someone who wants to PVP rather than have 0.0 full of afk ratting bots, I'm sitting in my ship cloaked, all alone. In your system. Waiting. To 'counter' this, step outside your comfort zone for 2 minutes and play the game. Fit a bait ratting ship that will fight me when I decloak to tackle you. Get some buddies together and form a defense/bait fleet. Or hell, if you're that intimidated by one guy in local that I can shut your entire corporation out of ratting in a system, go somewhere else. Your options are limitless in eve. But instead... whine thread #infinity about how afk cloaking is the 'problem'. Not your utter refusal to play the game any way but afk/bot ratting.


You and I both know this isn't how it works. As soon as anyone sets up any kind of a trap, the cloaky camper looks at it for a few minutes, then starts watching tv while waiting for the situation to present more favorable odds. If you are actually interested in PvP at any cost, you would have come in a non-cloaking ship, wouldn't you?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1155 - 2015-02-18 22:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
AFK cloaking is the equivalent of Shrodinger's PvPer. He is neither afk or active until he decloaks.
Gates are the equivalent of Shrodinger's Solar Systems, they are both empty and full of hositles. Until you jump through.
Loot containers are the equivalent of Shrodinger's Cargo containers, they are worth billions and worth nothing. Until you open it.
Capsuleers are the equivalent of Shrodinger's Capsuleer, they are both a seasoned vet and a noob. Until you engage them.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1156 - 2015-02-18 22:30:29 UTC
Quote:

Far be it for me to argue with a PVE Alt (God I hope you are anyway) who has 0 actual kills on his kill board and no losses but a few haulers, but doesn't your circular broken argument there completely invalidate this entire thread? "PVPers will leave when presented with a fight they can't win." PROBLEM SOLVED THREAD OVER. You just -made- my argument for me and ruined any argument for AFK Cloaking being a bad thing. I'm sitting in your space alone, you nut up and find 10 of your friends and come out to run me off. Now I'm gone. Go back to AFK ratting. Keep some of those friends with you to make sure I don't come back. Look at that, not only are you all doing something in the game besides afk-ratting, but you almost got some PVP, and the dastardly afk cloaker is gone.


Of course I am an alt and I have listed in this thread the three other names I use in game. Feel free to read back and find them.
While your at it, look at all the posts I have made. You may not agree with it but it addressed everything you just said.

BTW not everyone plays the game for the combat. View it how you will.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1157 - 2015-02-18 22:59:06 UTC
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
blah blah blah.


I'm sorry. This is too funny. You are so worried that someone will take away the power of your broken afk mechanic that you argue circles around yourself. It's not even worth having a discussion if you just want to set up straw man arguments and contradict yourself using myopic and narrowminded analysis of the situation. There are so many things wrong with all your 'responses' that I can't even be bothered to try to point them out.

Translation:
Why admit you had your argument countered, when you can pretend it never happened?
Blah blah blah indeed.

Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
Meanwhile on the side of someone who wants to PVP rather than have 0.0 full of afk ratting bots, I'm sitting in my ship cloaked, all alone. In your system. Waiting. To 'counter' this, step outside your comfort zone for 2 minutes and play the game. Fit a bait ratting ship that will fight me when I decloak to tackle you. Get some buddies together and form a defense/bait fleet. Or hell, if you're that intimidated by one guy in local that I can shut your entire corporation out of ratting in a system, go somewhere else. Your options are limitless in eve. But instead... whine thread #infinity about how afk cloaking is the 'problem'. Not your utter refusal to play the game any way but afk/bot ratting.


You and I both know this isn't how it works. As soon as anyone sets up any kind of a trap, the cloaky camper looks at it for a few minutes, then starts watching tv while waiting for the situation to present more favorable odds. If you are actually interested in PvP at any cost, you would have come in a non-cloaking ship, wouldn't you?

Oh my gosh....
Let's spread the word, first, you'll need to tell your gate camps to let it pass, don't forget any patrols you have in the area too!
Oh, and should we forget, keep mining and ratting while this uncloaked ship shows up to fight.

What's that?
OH, you want to re-ship to a combat hull, the moment you see a hostile?
You have no intention of letting a hostile near your PvE ship?
Ah, and of course, you can drive out a non-cloaking ship, so you can get back to PvE again.... how convenient!

You DO have a marvelous sense of humor, well done indeed!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1158 - 2015-02-19 01:54:58 UTC
Best to stick to your guns trying to argue circles and contradictions, as you are clearly better at that, than you are at "translating". I said exactly what I meant.

Quote:
Oh my gosh....
Let's spread the word, first, you'll need to tell your gate camps to let it pass, don't forget any patrols you have in the area too!
Oh, and should we forget, keep mining and ratting while this uncloaked ship shows up to fight.

What's that?
OH, you want to re-ship to a combat hull, the moment you see a hostile?
You have no intention of letting a hostile near your PvE ship?
Ah, and of course, you can drive out a non-cloaking ship, so you can get back to PvE again.... how convenient!


Saying things like this is the sort of crap that makes me wonder if you even play Eve. I already re-ship to a combat hull whenever a neut enters system. If they have the balls to engage then I hunt them down. Most of the time they just sit out in space, unresponsive, waiting for local to drop and some lone industrialists to venture out in an attempt to play the game. Granted most of our industrialists are smart enough not to do this, but the camper doesn't know that, so they stay for a few days, trying to single someone out. If you don't even know the basics of how Eve actually works, you probably should refrain from casting your opinion about like it has any bearing on reality.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1159 - 2015-02-19 04:38:28 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
How exactly is afk camping bullying someone?


I dont think it really is. Though I can see how it could easily frustrate people enough to move back to High sec.


Or quit the entire game apparently.

you can rat in high sec, rat in low sec, rat in WH space, but if you cant rat in null sec you may as well quit the whole game...wtf?

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:


Now many will say that cloak is doing the same thing and in a sense, yes it is. Cloak works fine for the most part, however I am not convienced that CCP intended cloak to be used in the fashion it is being used, in regards to AFK cloaking. Just not sure CCP ever meant for someone to sit in a system for months.

I kind of view AFK cloaking as something similar to spawn camping in the FPS world. Yea you can do it and you will get kills, but its a cheap tactic and kind of looked down on.


Am glad you didnt think it childish. <3

Im pretty confident CCP didnt intend cloaks to be used for afk cloaky camping, and im pretty confident they intended station and even POS's to be a reasonable safe haven. But i am also very confident that they did not intend for local to be used as an intel tool that could tell ratters when it is safe to rat or not.

I dont want to be able to eject people from stations. I dont want the reasonable expectation of safety from stations altered. I do want the expectation of safety from local intel modified . I consider this just as much a cheap tactic as cloaky camping and spawn camping.

fyi, i have no issue with people using cheap tactics, even ones i dont use myself. Alls fair in love and war and do what you have to to win. But that also doesnt mean the game cant be made better by altering cheap tactics and/or the game play surrounding them. Just make sure its balanced at the end of it all.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#1160 - 2015-02-19 09:54:36 UTC
I am sure that CCP won't change cloak mechanic in any way (what they already stated but i'm not allowed to quote).
If i look at the history of changes it is pretty clear where we are going.

A few examples:
No need for scanprobes anymore.
Jumprange increased (still true for blackops).
Jumpfatigue, with the hope that freighter travel by gates...
Loot reduced, bounty reduced, salvage reduced.
Escalations move more and more jumps out (double distance sofar).
DPS buff on cheap gankships.
Interceptor mechanic.
Thera.
Recon mechanic.

Planned changes:
Sov changes.
Destroyable stations and gates.

And now .. you want stealth from local.
Well, we might get that because it's full in line with previous changes.

Then the AFK cloak problem no more exists.
(In reward we get something like ED over time)