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Watch List- Require an Approval for Watch List Requests
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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2015-02-18 15:29:54 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Honestly this just sounds like a pain in the arse. People have pointed out that watchlists are important when using locator agents, but wouldn't rolling this feature into locates cause the same "problems" (and I use the word lightly) that you were describing in your original post? This just seems like you're trying to fix a problem that isn't there, and increase reliance on local chat for intel. Finally, think about the impact this would have on w-space. If you were camping someone's hole, you would have no indication if they were online or off without returning to k-space (assuming of course that locators provided this functionality). This primarily adds long periods of waiting, for little to no benefit.


WH space is supposed to be full of secret and unknown stuff but it's ok to know when someone is online in god know which whormhole in god know which part of the universe just because you added the name to a list?
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#62 - 2015-02-18 18:35:50 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club.

For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in.

Are highsec wars really that sad to where you have to completely rely on a watchlist in order to entice a conflict? Couldn't locators also be used, or, you know, local? Or do most highsec war guys just sit around waiting for their watchlist to light up to go do things. If you're saying that highsec war decs would die out solely because of the removal of a watchlist, then maybe they should die out, because that's pretty pathetic. THAT SAID, I would be in favor of your wardec targets also showing up on your watchlist when it is an active CONCORD war AND those players are in highsec. Having wars also show targets in low/null space would mean that major alliances could just plop in a few alts into an alt corp and dec every major alliance, ending up where we are now.

We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall.



Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts.

They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.
159Pinky
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-02-18 19:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: 159Pinky
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club.

For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in.

....

We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall.



A superpilot knows this before getting into the ship. If Goons don't allow sitters, talk to Goon High Command. Besides what's the problem for us seeing goon supers log in? Your capital assembly areas are well defended, no?

And a note, there are actually smaller groups of ppl whp rely on watchlist for some early warning. Because smaller groups do not always have the assets to drop alts in key systems 24/7. Yes you can, yes you have spies everywhere so for you guys this is an added bonus.

Then this, a WL only shows a login. Does not tell you WHERE, does not tell you WHAT is going to happen, does not tell you WHEN it's going to happen. It only shows the WHO. So you have some pieces but no solid intel. You'll need to work to actually gather more, else a WL is just a warning systems and not an intel system.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2015-02-18 20:50:58 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:


Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts.

They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.


You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#65 - 2015-02-18 21:08:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts.

They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.


You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them.

You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences".

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2015-02-18 22:24:58 UTC
Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable.

The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2015-02-18 23:09:43 UTC
E1ev1n wrote:
This is the same argument I see used when people say that local should be removed. Not that local is a bad thing just that it should stay because because.

I personally feel that watchlists should stay as is, they allow for some intel to be gathered without being intrusive or requiring you to be actively visually watching said individual, how else are you supposed to know that Timmy has come online, and you can now convo him to buy his 150k drone damage amplifiers in whichever market hub he is in. BTW Timmy only does private contracts for set prices to reduce the amount of tax he pays.

EVE Mail already does this.

Free intel is bad.

+1
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2015-02-18 23:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
afkalt wrote:
Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable.

The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead.


Luckily there are a ton of other pilots in the Republic Military School that could probably help you with this venture.

Having an option to deny a watchlist request is an advantage to any roaming ganking fleet or wh group that wants to ambush a target. Without watchlists, it takes boots on the ground to know when/where a hostile fleet is. Otherwise, we can easily tell when someone pulls a logoffski in one of our systems.

I mean, I don't really care if this isn't fixed, because I said earlier, we're already using it to 100% capacity and reaping every benefit out of the watchlist imaginable.

It just seems like this is a logical choice for a re-evaluation due to the nature of Eve.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2015-02-18 23:26:34 UTC
Note: you don't even need to "remove" watchlists. Just enable an option for people to "deny" watchlist requests or require approval for watch list requests.

If John Doe still wants to sell goods via trade while he's online, then he can select the option of "auto approve".

If Mr Titan Pilot doesn't want anyone to know when he's on, he can select the "auto reject" option.

Rather than set the watchlist to each individual in a corporation, there could be an option for "Allow Corporation" or "Allow Alliance".
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2015-02-18 23:35:52 UTC
I too have watchlisted half the galaxy...

It would be a different landscape when the watchlist gone.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Hrothgar Nilsson
#71 - 2015-02-19 05:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts.

They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.


You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them.

You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences".

No, you don't need to have actually "seen them" in the game. All I had to do when I made watchlists of supercap pilots, was look at eve-kill and copy-paste a list of names.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2015-02-19 07:08:46 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts.

They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.


You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them.

You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences".

No, you don't need to have actually "seen them" in the game. All I had to do when I made watchlists of supercap pilots, was look at eve-kill and copy-paste a list of names.

The subtopic at hand was war decs, not supers. Roll Nevertheless, "watching others dying" applies as well as you need to do some research to find them regardless.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#73 - 2015-02-19 07:25:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The subtopic at hand was war decs, not supers. Roll Nevertheless, "watching others dying" applies as well as you need to do some research to find them regardless.

And that would be called looking at evewho.com.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#74 - 2015-02-19 08:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
How do you want to look up people on EVEWho if you do not know them? Roll Besides, "watching others dying" again applies as you need to do some research to find them regardless.™ This, however, is hard to achieve as these neutral logi pilots do not show on a kill mail so you need to be either on grid when such a stunt takes place or you are on the receiving end to begin with. In either case, above applies.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#75 - 2015-02-19 09:08:01 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How do you want to look up people on EVEWho if you do not know them? Roll Besides, "watching others dying" again applies as you need to do some research to find them regardless.™ This, however, is hard to achieve as these neutral logi pilots do not show on a kill mail so you need to be either on grid when such a stunt takes place or you are on the receiving end to begin with. In either case, above applies.

Frostys made a broad, generic point about people "feel[ing] entitled knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them" without any other specifics. My responses were in that vein.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-02-19 10:38:14 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable.

The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead.


Luckily there are a ton of other pilots in the Republic Military School that could probably help you with this venture.

Having an option to deny a watchlist request is an advantage to any roaming ganking fleet or wh group that wants to ambush a target. Without watchlists, it takes boots on the ground to know when/where a hostile fleet is. Otherwise, we can easily tell when someone pulls a logoffski in one of our systems.

I mean, I don't really care if this isn't fixed, because I said earlier, we're already using it to 100% capacity and reaping every benefit out of the watchlist imaginable.

It just seems like this is a logical choice for a re-evaluation due to the nature of Eve.


Yes but you've not explained why not logging off is a problem. Circumventing a watchlist is utterly trivial.

Logoffskis are a separate issue entirely - see my earlier point about ships and pilots magically disappearing.

I suppose you dislike map stats too? They show hostile fleet build ups and camps etc.

Get rid of the watchlist if ships never leave space when logged off, then we can talk.