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Quality Control
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Pillowtalk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-12-21 14:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pillowtalk
I love Eve, I really really do. I just came back to Eve after 3 years, and one thing hasn't changed an ounce. CCP has absolutely no quality control at all.

When I left it was......

"OHHHH new big expansion"
bugs
patch
bugs
patch
bugs
emergency downtime
bugs
patch
emergency reboot
patch


And its still the same.



CCP you really gotta step it up a notch as far as quality control goes. You need to hire an ace who has been doing project management for 15 years or something.

I spent 6 hours last night reinstalling the Eve client because the patch broke my install.


You gotta get this under control or my return is gunna be short.


P.S. I'm really not trying to be negative or denigrate CCP, just calling it how I see it =/

Don't violence me bro!
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#2 - 2011-12-21 14:39:11 UTC
*standard comment on how unique PC's are a pain to program for, and that while some part of code might behave okay with a dozen testers, might go completely apeshit when used by thousands of people at the same time*
indiana bones
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-12-21 14:44:04 UTC
i can haz..... ur stuffz?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2011-12-21 14:50:06 UTC
Name a MMO that doesnt have bugs in big patches.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2011-12-21 14:56:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Name a MMO that doesnt have bugs in big patches.


Bot nets?
Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2011-12-21 15:57:03 UTC
Have to agree with OP...
Daily patches to patch the patch, and a new set of patch bugs, not to mention half the bugs introduced with Crucible are still there. It's becoming increasing hard to say good things about CCP, when it's the same old problems over and over... Oops

Losing connection with probes
windows resetting themselves after every bugfix, info on other players not displaying properly, overview not updating.
The list goes on and on...

When you break more things than you fix...there's an issue. Shocked

"Fighting CCD since 2139"
Borisaurus
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#7 - 2011-12-21 16:12:15 UTC
I too am outraged at CCP's fervent bug fixing and also feel that certain unavoidable realities of the process are in fact slights against me personally and not consequences of certain changes to the game's code that help me more than inconvenience me.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2011-12-21 16:33:40 UTC
Pillowtalk wrote:
"OHHHH new big expansion"
bugs
patch
bugs
patch
bugs
emergency downtime
bugs
patch
emergency reboot
patch


This is the lifecycle for every mmo out there I believe.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2011-12-21 17:02:42 UTC
Borisaurus wrote:
I too am outraged at CCP's fervent bug fixing and also feel that certain unavoidable realities of the process are in fact slights against me personally and not consequences of certain changes to the game's code that help me more than inconvenience me.



Sorry Jr Goon, your opinion is not really relevent. Lol

Just because you kids got SC's nerfed to allow your rifter blobs to take over 0.0, doesn't mean everything is good with the rest of the game....Shocked

"Fighting CCD since 2139"
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-12-21 17:18:15 UTC
Pillowtalk wrote:
I love Eve, I really really do. I just came back to Eve after 3 years, and one thing hasn't changed an ounce. CCP has absolutely no quality control at all.

When I left it was......

"OHHHH new big expansion"
bugs
patch
bugs
patch
bugs
emergency downtime
bugs
patch
emergency reboot
patch


And its still the same.



CCP you really gotta step it up a notch as far as quality control goes. You need to hire an ace who has been doing project management for 15 years or something.

I spent 6 hours last night reinstalling the Eve client because the patch broke my install.


You gotta get this under control or my return is gunna be short.


P.S. I'm really not trying to be negative or denigrate CCP, just calling it how I see it =/


You could replace CCP with alot of other names and it would be just as true. Its just the way most MMOs are.
Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-12-21 17:21:30 UTC
after 6 years of EVE, the Battlefield series and alot of other games you kind of get used to it and just shrug it off :P
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Out of the Blue.
#12 - 2011-12-21 18:29:50 UTC
I actually am a professional software quality control analyst.

How may of you in this thread can say that, how many of the players can say that. What do you really know about SQC?

It is virtually impossible to catch every single bug that is in a game this size. Its not possible

1. There are so many computer set-ups that need to be considered.
2. Different graphics cards that are used.
3. Networking issues to consider.
4. Different programing modules that need to be worked on on a daily basis.
5. New equipment that needs to be considered in their systems.
6. They release new code every six months that allow you to enjoy this game. We arn't talking 10 lines of code, we are talking 10's of thousands of lines of code that probably need to be modified.
7. Intigration processes.
8. characters that transfer from one server to other servers.
9. Localization issues.
10. patching issues and when it needs to happen.
11 Release issues.
12. Code upgrades.
13. Code migrations.
14. Petition requests and responses.
15. Server Load issues


That is a small list.


So, when you want to ***** and complain about the patches remember this,. There is alot more than what is going on that you can't see. They have a job just like you should have a job. They are doing their job to the best of their ability and are trying to be a professional as possible.

Don't assume they arn't doing their jobs just because something doesn't work.

Their ability isn't the issue, your attitude is.









"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI
Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2011-12-21 18:44:41 UTC
Hung TuLo wrote:
I actually am a professional software quality control analyst.

How may of you in this thread can say that, how many of the players can say that. What do you really know about SQC?

It is virtually impossible to catch every single bug that is in a game this size. Its not possible

1. There are so many computer set-ups that need to be considered.
2. Different graphics cards that are used.
3. Networking issues to consider.
4. Different programing modules that need to be worked on on a daily basis.
5. New equipment that needs to be considered in their systems.
6. They release new code every six months that allow you to enjoy this game. We arn't talking 10 lines of code, we are talking 10's of thousands of lines of code that probably need to be modified.
7. Intigration processes.
8. characters that transfer from one server to other servers.
9. Localization issues.
10. patching issues and when it needs to happen.
11 Release issues.
12. Code upgrades.
13. Code migrations.
14. Petition requests and responses.
15. Server Load issues


That is a small list.


So, when you want to ***** and complain about the patches remember this,. There is alot more than what is going on that you can't see. They have a job just like you should have a job. They are doing their job to the best of their ability and are trying to be a professional as possible.

Don't assume they arn't doing their jobs just because something doesn't work.

Their ability isn't the issue, your attitude is.






Did you work for Microsoft by chance?

"Fighting CCD since 2139"
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Out of the Blue.
#14 - 2011-12-21 18:58:34 UTC
HAHAHA,

No I didn't mate but, the work for a SQCA is the same where ever you work. QC on games are different for QC on other companies software. But the USe of control is the same. There are standards that are adhered to. SOmetimes you have to make compromises. Do you stop a major piece of software from being implemented due to a very minor problem? no.

Everything is dependant upon the severity of the problem. Some things go out the door even when there are known issues. That you can't control.


When you are promised something you expect it right? Well when EVE tells you you are getting a release you better get it because 100% of your customers are expecting it. QC can only find so many problems in a timeframe. Even a smaller amount of those items can be fixed at a time. (Time Constriants)

It is easier and better to release something with a small amount of issues than it is to release nothing at all. IF you get a date of release and nothing is release what happenns to the thoughts of the players expecting the release. Opps EVE isn't reliable in their timeframes. That is worse than opps EVE gives us a release ya there are small bugs but we know it will get fixed.

"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#15 - 2011-12-21 20:04:26 UTC
Yeah CCP, test EVERYTHING before release.

There can't be more than what, 10 or 20 features and actions to verify right? Just run through them all real quick after every 1-hour downtime for patching.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2011-12-21 20:09:06 UTC
Pillowtalk wrote:
CCP you really gotta step it up a notch as far as quality control goes. You need to hire an ace who has been doing project management for 15 years or something.

I spent 6 hours last night reinstalling the Eve client because the patch broke my install.

You gotta get this under control or my return is gunna be short.



I got a better idea, how about we send CCP home for the holidays so they can enjoy whatever it is they do in the Winter in Iceland, and you go to CCP HQ and fix everything yourself. We will all be happy to forum-camp and shitpost it up about what a horrible job you're doing.

Or maybe you could appreciate the fact that they are still actively involved in making their game better and better every year to the best of their abilities while trying to satisfy as much of their playerbase as possible. Stop bitching.
Ai Shun
#17 - 2011-12-21 20:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Hung TuLo wrote:
I actually am a professional software quality control analyst.

How may of you in this thread can say that, how many of the players can say that. What do you really know about SQC?

It is virtually impossible to catch every single bug that is in a game this size. Its not possible

1. There are so many computer set-ups that need to be considered.
2. Different graphics cards that are used.
3. Networking issues to consider.
4. Different programing modules that need to be worked on on a daily basis.
5. New equipment that needs to be considered in their systems.
6. They release new code every six months that allow you to enjoy this game. We arn't talking 10 lines of code, we are talking 10's of thousands of lines of code that probably need to be modified.
7. Intigration processes.
8. characters that transfer from one server to other servers.
9. Localization issues.
10. patching issues and when it needs to happen.
11 Release issues.
12. Code upgrades.
13. Code migrations.
14. Petition requests and responses.
15. Server Load issues


That is a small list.


I'd recommend reading The Clean Coder by Uncle Bob. It is a good resource for being a true professional covering topics from TDD through to Estimations and Communication. And it is written conversationally, so it is a light, easy read as well.

Hung TuLo wrote:
Don't assume they arn't doing their jobs just because something doesn't work.

Their ability isn't the issue, your attitude is.


I agree with you in principle on the core point; it is nigh on impossible to ensure your code will work on every single environment for any given circumstance. A bad memory chip that occasionally flakes out can **** everything up and it won't be your fault. A device driver, written by some company that mass produces cheap NICs can have subtle bug that will affect your software - but because your software is the visible face of their interaction with the PC they blame you.

What can however be done is to try and cover the edge cases. Take the UI reset problem. It has not happened to me yet. I don't know if this is a bug or not; but I have seen it reported quite a few times on the forums. (Marginal in terms of population, I expect) So, how long before it becomes useful to spend a few hours adding the ability to save/load the UI to a local XML file? Or storing the UI settings in a separate location on shutdown and comparing them to those locations on-load. And if they are different, prompt the end-user.

As to the second bit quoted, I agree.

Hung ToLo wrote:
Everything is dependant upon the severity of the problem. Some things go out the door even when there are known issues. That you can't control.


That really does not sound very professional. You wittingly ship a defective product when it is within circumstances you can control? I would suggest you get your development team to communicate better with QA, to ensure they have proper unit tests and to make sure that everything passes before they even release it to QA. And you and your development team should be pushing back to management to ensure that expectations are met.

Honestly, I would much rather ship a week late than release a product I know is defective. How could I call myself a professional if I did not?
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Out of the Blue.
#18 - 2011-12-21 20:27:34 UTC
I do understand your point.

Depending on the severity and criticalness of the problem. You don't even thing of placing something into production. And yes you do have those meetings between QA and dev teams.

In the end QA sometimes does not have the "power or control" to sto something from going into production.

It mainly is the 80/20 law or the 90/10 law.

As long as 80% - 90% of the code is working as expected then a push to production is waranted. Once again that depends on the critical nature of the problem. In your example of the UI problem. If the UI was found to be working 95% of the time and the problem was minor. Should the entire push be stopped?

Most of the time. The answer to these things are not your regular QA folks or you dev folks. Its their managers that are answering to the CEO or other bigwigs that will make the ultimate decision. By and large the QA staff is doing their job.

Remember QA just reports the facts. The test the software and report problems, possible causes and possible ramifications.

QA does not cause the coding problems they find them.


Its those in the nosebleed seats that make the decisions.

"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI
Avid Bumhumper
Beekeepers Anonymous
#19 - 2011-12-21 20:27:39 UTC
Hung TuLo wrote:
I actually am a professional software quality control analyst.

How may of you in this thread can say that, how many of the players can say that. What do you really know about SQC?

It is virtually impossible to catch every single bug that is in a game this size. Its not possible

1. There are so many computer set-ups that need to be considered.
2. Different graphics cards that are used.
3. Networking issues to consider.
4. Different programing modules that need to be worked on on a daily basis.
5. New equipment that needs to be considered in their systems.
6. They release new code every six months that allow you to enjoy this game. We arn't talking 10 lines of code, we are talking 10's of thousands of lines of code that probably need to be modified.
7. Intigration processes.
8. characters that transfer from one server to other servers.
9. Localization issues.
10. patching issues and when it needs to happen.
11 Release issues.
12. Code upgrades.
13. Code migrations.
14. Petition requests and responses.
15. Server Load issues


That is a small list.


So, when you want to ***** and complain about the patches remember this,. There is alot more than what is going on that you can't see. They have a job just like you should have a job. They are doing their job to the best of their ability and are trying to be a professional as possible.

Don't assume they arn't doing their jobs just because something doesn't work.

Their ability isn't the issue, your attitude is.




And your response, if you really are what you claim, is predictible.
It may not even be your fault, companies in general have reached the point where it's no longer, how can I improve my customer service/app/whatever.
It's how can I squeeze more out of what I have, and how low are my customers expectations considering what they deal with daily..
If the other guy isn't doing the job either, we have nothing to worry about....


This is the new mindset......less bad == good enough. Ugh

Not saying all companies have adopted this posture, but if you look around, you'll recgonize the attitude.....

My Tinfoil hat has been sugically implanted, so no,it is not for sale.....
Arctur Vallfar
Knights Adamant
#20 - 2011-12-21 20:33:32 UTC
Fixing bugs ain't like dusting crops, boy.
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