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Evolved BattleCruisers
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Gremoxx
Wing Commanders
#1 - 2015-02-16 13:14:46 UTC
Evolved Battle Cruisers

Lets face it, we all had expectations from EVE first when we started playing the game. One I had, was that I could have more control over BC´s layout than we do. In line with T3 Cruisers. I remember how disappointed I was first when I started to play EVE and my fittings had no effect on the look of the ship. And that I could not fit sub-systems to re-configure the ship to the purpose I intended for it.

With all the transformations that you get with the new ships (Svipul) I cant see other ships cant be the same.

We can fit modules to compensate for lack of skill or build on skills at max to get an edge. But at the end of the day, Hurricane will always be Hurricane, and Brutix will be Brutix.

Why cant I fit Sub-Systems that allow me to fit Large guns to BC´s, or to reduce there sig radius, or to fit extra weapons like small-auto-cannons that automatically target and kill drones ?

For me, the only thing stopping us is our lack of Imagination.

Lets have Evolved Battle Cruisers to fight the Drifters.
Helios Panala
#2 - 2015-02-16 13:30:53 UTC
I'm all for more BC specific options, similar in style to the medium MJD, but this seems to be a suggestion to make them into pseudo-T3's.
Leyete Wulf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-02-16 13:47:27 UTC
While there is no doubt BCs and BS in general are in a bad place right now I don't see how eliminating the matter of choice between hulls is beneficial to gameplay. To put it in real world terms, a tank is a tank not a humvee or a motorbike, making the tank convertible into a humvee does not resolve the issues it has as a tank nor does it improve the lives of humvee drivers. The choice of what hull to train for and fly is one of the truly powerful and awesome choices we get to make every time we undock, don't you dare take that away from me. Also, as an FC I absolutely depend on my knowledge of the basic layouts and most common configurations of hulls for evaluating fleet compositions and calling targets. Your proposal would eliminate the experience factor of veteran target callers by making it impossible to predict the capabilities of our opponents and identify potential weaknesses.

BCs need fixing but this is not the way to do it.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-02-16 14:11:29 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
Evolved Battle Cruisers

Lets face it, we all had expectations from EVE first when we started playing the game. One I had, was that I could have more control over BC´s layout than we do. In line with T3 Cruisers. I remember how disappointed I was first when I started to play EVE and my fittings had no effect on the look of the ship. And that I could not fit sub-systems to re-configure the ship to the purpose I intended for it.

With all the transformations that you get with the new ships (Svipul) I cant see other ships cant be the same.

We can fit modules to compensate for lack of skill or build on skills at max to get an edge. But at the end of the day, Hurricane will always be Hurricane, and Brutix will be Brutix.

Why cant I fit Sub-Systems that allow me to fit Large guns to BC´s, or to reduce there sig radius, or to fit extra weapons like small-auto-cannons that automatically target and kill drones ?

For me, the only thing stopping us is our lack of Imagination.

Lets have Evolved Battle Cruisers to fight the Drifters.



Your right it´s time to make every ship as strong as the t3 cruisers. I always wanted my own t3 Titan with resistance about 95 % twice as much shield/armor/structure and t2 capital guns and of course an aoe doomsday.

But lets face it that will also never happen. If you wanna a ship which you can adapt fly a t3- cruiser or the t3 destroyer. BC have already a ship which can fit bigger weapons, if you want to decrease your sig use imps. Autoshooting turrets are not needed.

So many bad ideas in one thread. Please CCP close ist fast.

-1
M'pact
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-02-16 14:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: M'pact
T1 ships are T1 because T1.
T2 ships are T2 because T2.
T3 ships are T3 because T3.

T3s are cool and all ... but not all ships should be T3s.

And if ships had point defense turrets, it wouldn't be EVE any more.

-9000 to OP's idea.

When I finally do make an impact on this universe, it will reverberate across the entirety of it, and no one will be able to truthfully claim they don't know me. - -

Until then, I'll just sit quietly over here, minding my own business...
Gremoxx
Wing Commanders
#6 - 2015-02-16 15:00:18 UTC
Quote:
Your right it´s time to make every ship as strong as the t3 cruisers. I always wanted my own t3 Titan with resistance about 95 % twice as much shield/armor/structure and t2 capital guns and of course an aoe doomsday.

But lets face it that will also never happen. If you wanna a ship which you can adapt fly a t3- cruiser or the t3 destroyer. BC have already a ship which can fit bigger weapons, if you want to decrease your sig use imps. Autoshooting turrets are not needed.



Quote:
While there is no doubt BCs and BS in general are in a bad place right now I don't see how eliminating the matter of choice between hulls is beneficial to gameplay. To put it in real world terms, a tank is a tank not a humvee or a motorbike, making the tank convertible into a humvee does not resolve the issues it has as a tank nor does it improve the lives of humvee drivers. The choice of what hull to train for and fly is one of the truly powerful and awesome choices we get to make every time we undock, don't you dare take that away from me. Also, as an FC I absolutely depend on my knowledge of the basic layouts and most common configurations of hulls for evaluating fleet compositions and calling targets. Your proposal would eliminate the experience factor of veteran target callers by making it impossible to predict the capabilities of our opponents and identify potential weaknesses.


The FC calls for Hurricanes, you don´t bring blapping Drake !!

There is no need for the BC´s to be over-powered, there is no need for them to become T3 BC´s, or any other mad cap ship.

If you have pre-defined outcome from any sub-system you add, like the T3´s, then there is no reason why they should become over-powered. Its all in the hands of the Dev´s.

The only limitation is imagination, time and money.

And why should EVE-players not be allowed to fit Sub-Systems that convert someone´s hauler to combat vessel ? There are enough examples from two World Wars to make you ask.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-02-16 16:15:29 UTC
Because of Balance.

(And seriously, there is what, one time when an armed merchant ship actually killed a warship?)
M'pact
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-16 17:41:08 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
there is no need for them to become T3 BC´s, or any other mad cap ship.

This is EXACTLY what you are asking for.

T3 = transformation via subsystems, or transformation via modes. That is what makes T3, T3.

And our World Wars are not a good example. It took loads of time to convert those ships, and the conversions were permanent.

When I finally do make an impact on this universe, it will reverberate across the entirety of it, and no one will be able to truthfully claim they don't know me. - -

Until then, I'll just sit quietly over here, minding my own business...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-02-16 18:14:07 UTC
M'pact wrote:
Gremoxx wrote:
there is no need for them to become T3 BC´s, or any other mad cap ship.

This is EXACTLY what you are asking for.

T3 = transformation via subsystems, or transformation via modes. That is what makes T3, T3.

And our World Wars are not a good example. It took loads of time to convert those ships, and the conversions were permanent.


Some commerce ship returned to previous duty once the war was over. Many didn't because they were no longer floating...

As for modification, we don't do it because it's easyer to go buy a combat ship in EVE then it would be to modify a hauler to make it somewhat combat capable. The reality of EVE and real life are really different so comparing them is just wrong. The only time refitting a ship for an entirely different purpose is viable is if it will cover something you really can't deal with for too long. All combat ship are widely available in EVE with the exception of cap ships. The only ship I can see being retro-fitted to combat cap ships should be freighter being "transformed" into ghetto carrier without the triage function by re-purposing the large cargo hold as a large drone bay.

I can already picture the battle charon flown by everybody who trained caldari freighter...
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-16 18:48:10 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
We can fit modules to compensate for lack of skill or build on skills at max to get an edge. But at the end of the day, Hurricane will always be Hurricane, and Brutix will be Brutix.

Why cant I fit Sub-Systems that allow me to fit Large guns to BC´s, or to reduce there sig radius, or to fit extra weapons like small-auto-cannons that automatically target and kill drones ?


That's the point of a ship hull. A Hurricane hull is designed to perform a certain task. It can be configured in a few different ways, but nothing that you do to it will actually change the shape of the hull. Same thing with real ships. A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is exactly that, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. It can be fitted with different types of weapons and subsystems and what not for specific missions, but at the end of the day it's STILL a Nimitz class aircraft carrier with a Nimitz class aircraft carrier hull. There will be a visual difference between the different types of weapons that are fit, but that happens in Eve as well. Swapping your medium arty turrets out for medium autocannons isn't going to change the shape of your ship's hull. It just isn't.

And the reason you can't put large guns on a Cane is because it would throw the ship out of balance. Keep in mind that it's a battleCRUISER, not a battleSHIP. Large guns are for battleships. The only exception is for the Tier 3 battlecruisers, which are balanced by being glass cannons.

Also...
Quote:
We can fit modules to compensate for lack of skill...
Really, dude? You basically just said that you have no skill, and that you would like the game to cater to your lack of skill. Sorry, but nobody else should have to pay for your lack of skill.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2015-02-16 18:59:48 UTC
CCP can't ballance ships as is

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gremoxx
Wing Commanders
#12 - 2015-02-16 20:45:46 UTC
CCP sell EVE Online as a Sandbox game, and my only limitation is what I can physically to with the ships.

At the moment I cant convert simple hauler into highly effective combat vessel.

My Hurricane is what it is, I cant trade shield for extra DPS, or mobility for extra hull strength.

Quote:
Really, dude? You basically just said that you have no skill, and that you would like the game to cater to your lack of skill. Sorry, but nobody else should have to pay for your lack of skill


117m SP, I don´t suffer from lack of skill points. And with all my char, we will exceed 200m SP in both PVP and Industry skills.

Quote:
(And seriously, there is what, one time when an armed merchant ship actually killed a warship?)


Actually, you will find that many submarines where sunk by armed merchant vessels in both World Wars.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-02-16 20:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Two core words - can't & balance.

If it's so - it's better to call Saul...

Time to time we could see such discussion where one side screams about how unbalanced ship is the other says no it's perfectly well balanced.

And it's hard to decide and pick up the right side cause arguments are rock solid from both of them.

Tactical desys is a perfect way to solve such problem - they gave them one important thing flexability. So there are actually no subs so we can't consider it's a true T3 ship. But you could pick up from one of the ship roles. So can we say that tactical desys pretty well balanced? No, cause we only have 1 and second one is just on the way. But we could say for sure it's flexible in roles.

Why don't we have similar scenario with any other class where so many doubts in regard of balance being discussed.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Sigras
Conglomo
#14 - 2015-02-16 21:23:41 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
Why cant I fit Sub-Systems that allow me to fit Large guns to BC´s, or to reduce there sig radius, or to fit extra weapons like small-auto-cannons that automatically target and kill drones ?

For me, the only thing stopping us is our lack of Imagination.

Lets have Evolved Battle Cruisers to fight the Drifters.

And that is the day everyone in CCP even remotely related to balance slit their wrists...

seriously, why dont you go to the DOTA forums and suggest that everyone get to pick their "Q" skill instead of having what the character comes with... You'd be laughed off the forums because everyone knows that would be impossible to balance. Game. Breakingly. Impossible. And that game doesnt even scratch the surface of the complexity of Eve. Add to that a persistent world and living economy and you have a disaster on your hands.
Gremoxx wrote:
My Hurricane is what it is, I cant trade shield for extra DPS, or mobility for extra hull strength.

You can trade shields for range, with tracking computers, or damage with target painters. You can trade mobility for hull strength with reinforced bulkheads.

Eve's method of customization IS the module system, and they have enough difficulty balancing that.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2015-02-16 21:33:06 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
CCP sell EVE Online as a Sandbox game, and my only limitation is what I can physically to with the ships.

At the moment I cant convert simple hauler into highly effective combat vessel.


lies.


Battle Badger
Battle Venture
Battle Hulk
Battle Iteron


And do i even have to tell you about the Skiff?

Gremoxx wrote:

My Hurricane is what it is, I cant trade shield for extra DPS, or mobility for extra hull strength.


Lies.

- Swap a DC and extender on your nano cane for an extra gyro and TC = less shield, more deeps.
- Swap gyros and prop mod on cane for extra plates = less mobility, more tank.

In your RL scenario your assuming the merchant ships arent already equipped for a role, and when they are refit, sacrifice nothing. The reality is actually more like eve. You take a stock hull, fit it as a merchant ship for doing merchant stuff, often not even using all the available potential because you didnt need it until you needed it. Then when you re-fit it for another role, you take things off, sacrifice cargo space for different equipment and ammo, and add other things on. So refitting an iteron already equipped for hauling with a blaster, neuts and a tank is just like refitting a merchant ship.

Likewise with the BC. It comes with a stock hull. This hull may have one or more standard loadouts, but you are free to sacrifice parts of that loadout to maximise others.

Gremoxx wrote:

Quote:
Really, dude? You basically just said that you have no skill, and that you would like the game to cater to your lack of skill. Sorry, but nobody else should have to pay for your lack of skill


117m SP, I don´t suffer from lack of skill points. And with all my char, we will exceed 200m SP in both PVP and Industry skills.



Hes talking about pilot skill, not SP.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2015-02-16 23:30:01 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
CCP sell EVE Online as a Sandbox game, and my only limitation is what I can physically to with the ships.

At the moment I cant convert simple hauler into highly effective combat vessel.

My Hurricane is what it is, I cant trade shield for extra DPS, or mobility for extra hull strength.

you can

you want less shield for more dps go with a weapon rig rather than a shield rig or a damage mod rather than a Flux

you want less mobility for hull use a bulkhead rather than a nano

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-02-17 00:24:34 UTC
Gremoxx wrote:
The FC calls for Hurricanes, you don´t bring blapping Drake !!

Finally someone understands! Its all about the pheonix.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!