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[Proposal] Total change to mining mechanics.
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Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding
#21 - 2011-11-12 16:32:16 UTC
This is a terrible idea. Whats needed are changes to ore values, exhumers, and to some mechanics, the answer is not "kill mining". And the reason the drone regions supply 99% of high grade minerals is NOT because they pushed miners out based on pricing, its because mining in nullsec is complete and utter ******* bullshit. Its not worth it, mega and zyd could double in price and I still wouldnt mine it because i dont want to deal with multiple cloaky campers, the lol **** industrials faggots, and the long dull hours and hours it takes to get anything done. Unless you can make mining with one hulk net me as much as incursioning does (100+ mil per hour) then **** mining, not worth the hassle. Get rid of cloaky camping, allow hulks to survive more than 2 volleys from a stealth bomber, or get me a goddamn capital miner with capital strips, then you'll see mining again. Otherwise, be glad the drones are there keeping prices from going through the goddamn roof. And shut the **** up about mining when you obviously dont know **** about it.
Solo Player
#22 - 2011-11-12 18:27:22 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
the drone regions supply 99% of high grade minerals .


Source?

I'd love to have a discussion on mining with a different OP - maybe Endovior will turn his idea into a proposal of its own?
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#23 - 2011-11-12 18:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Solo Player wrote:
Princess Cellestia wrote:
the drone regions supply 99% of high grade minerals .


Source?

I'd love to have a discussion on mining with a different OP - maybe Endovior will turn his idea into a proposal of its own?


Well changing mechanics won't help, honestly, using the skiff won't change the state of mining whatsoever.

Killing the botters is the issue.

The real problem is that most people can't seem to grasp the economics well enough to understand this.

Seriously, changing mineral values and mining barges?!?

How the **** does this stop the degredation of the value of isk - most of which happens due to RMTers most of which use mining as their source of income ?

Please do tell.

Facts -
High end minerals have not grown in the past 5 years (There aren't new belts being added to the game).
High end mineral values have decreased around 30% in the past 5 years and yet the player base has grown exponentially.
The same amount of minerals for more demand but lower incomes for miners.
The price of Plex has increased by 25% in the past 6 MONTHS.

So the amount of in-game minerals has remained the same.
Demand must increase with player numbers.
But with increased demand you SHOULD get increased income, instead something is effecting it in the opposite direction in a HUGE way.

The obvious reason for these changes is RMTers, not drone regions - which have been in the game for years.

.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#24 - 2011-11-12 20:16:05 UTC
You need to edit your post once more dear:
Kill all mining bots and remove mining as option for the colour-blind!

You will NEVER be able to think up a way that hinders bots without also making it excruciating for humans. Instead you should think of of ways that make it less of an eye gouging exercise for people which is by far most frequently mentioned reason for resorting to mining bots.
Combine it with mechanics that encourage mining with friends/gangs by adding extra profitability through minigame sort of deals and bots become a non-issue (provided CCP keeps refining their detection tools).
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#25 - 2011-11-12 23:13:24 UTC
Solo Player wrote:
Princess Cellestia wrote:
the drone regions supply 99% of high grade minerals .


Source?

I'd love to have a discussion on mining with a different OP - maybe Endovior will turn his idea into a proposal of its own?


Planning on it; my original post was a spur-of-the-moment idea. I'll have something more fleshed-out and detailed later.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#26 - 2011-11-13 02:59:08 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
You need to edit your post once more dear:
Kill all mining bots and remove mining as option for the colour-blind!

You will NEVER be able to think up a way that hinders bots without also making it excruciating for humans. Instead you should think of of ways that make it less of an eye gouging exercise for people which is by far most frequently mentioned reason for resorting to mining bots.
Combine it with mechanics that encourage mining with friends/gangs by adding extra profitability through minigame sort of deals and bots become a non-issue (provided CCP keeps refining their detection tools).


This is so wrong.

Places like ISKBANK do not exist merely because mining is "an eyegouging experience". They exist and bot because it's a printing press for isk and isk means real money.

These are the people to make war upon through game changes.

.
Eperor
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#27 - 2011-11-14 09:01:33 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Princess Cellestia wrote:
the drone regions supply 99% of high grade minerals .


Source?

I'd love to have a discussion on mining with a different OP - maybe Endovior will turn his idea into a proposal of its own?


Well changing mechanics won't help, honestly, using the skiff won't change the state of mining whatsoever.

Killing the botters is the issue.

The real problem is that most people can't seem to grasp the economics well enough to understand this.

Seriously, changing mineral values and mining barges?!?

How the **** does this stop the degredation of the value of isk - most of which happens due to RMTers most of which use mining as their source of income ?

Please do tell.

Facts -
High end minerals have not grown in the past 5 years (There aren't new belts being added to the game).
High end mineral values have decreased around 30% in the past 5 years and yet the player base has grown exponentially.
The same amount of minerals for more demand but lower incomes for miners.
The price of Plex has increased by 25% in the past 6 MONTHS.

So the amount of in-game minerals has remained the same.
Demand must increase with player numbers.
But with increased demand you SHOULD get increased income, instead something is effecting it in the opposite direction in a HUGE way.

The obvious reason for these changes is RMTers, not drone regions - which have been in the game for years.


Ah you look at doltan first ( yes Drone lands was always but there wasnt so much ppl how it is now. And waththey do there afcorsratign and kiling drons, mining al thos activitis ganerating great mineral amounts. Way you tink DRF have bigest Super cap fleet ;)
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-14 10:31:16 UTC
I am not sure that this would be of any real use.

The miners that I know mine everything in a belt until there's nothing left. They wouldn't even waste their time scanning as they will mine it all anyway.
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding
#29 - 2011-11-17 08:11:26 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
I am not sure that this would be of any real use.

The miners that I know mine everything in a belt until there's nothing left. They wouldn't even waste their time scanning as they will mine it all anyway.




This

Also making mining like PI would remove the need for multibox miners, and I don't think ccp wants to do anything that would cause people to unsub their accounts.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#30 - 2011-11-17 16:16:17 UTC
Endovior wrote:
stuff


Shocked

You must be a Chribba alt. +1 to this!

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#31 - 2011-11-17 18:12:31 UTC
I have no connection to Chribba, but thanks for the interest!

Still working on the full version of the proposal, instead of the half-assed random idea version. Confirming that this WILL be something that works best with lots of people in an op sense, as opposed to a solo-only activity in a PI sense.
wiersma
Space Bacteria Research
#32 - 2011-12-07 13:18:14 UTC
Strip mining means just that. Strip the whole roid to find the minerals
If mining would be PI like it would not be strip mining.

But mining could use a buff of some kind
Bigger mining ships with better resists And i would love to see the rorqual alowed in highsec space.
Or another Large mobile mining platform
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#33 - 2011-12-20 01:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
Goose99 wrote:
That said, bots use OCR, so no, it won't stop botting.

Well actually it'd be interesting to see if there are any PI bots out there. That's how we could tell if it's too difficult for them to do.

Revolution Rising wrote:

For the umpteenth time, botters already work grav sites.

How is this problem solved ?

I don't think bots are complicated enough to handle the little probing mini game. The problem with grav sites is that they stay around too long. Someone can probe it out, bookmark it, and have their regular mining bot run it all day.

Replace belts with small grav sites that deplete in 2-3 hours of mining at whatever rate people normally mine belts in highsec.

Also if you think the probing mini game is too hard for noobs then put some veldspar only belts in the starter areas until they go through the probing tutorial. Or better yet make them learn to probe before they can mine.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-12-20 18:47:30 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:

I don't think bots are complicated enough to handle the little probing mini game. The problem with grav sites is that they stay around too long. Someone can probe it out, bookmark it, and have their regular mining bot run it all day.

Replace belts with small grav sites that deplete in 2-3 hours of mining at whatever rate people normally mine belts in highsec.

Also if you think the probing mini game is too hard for noobs then put some veldspar only belts in the starter areas until they go through the probing tutorial. Or better yet make them learn to probe before they can mine.


I don't think the PI model is applicable. I'd concur with some of your thoughts here and it's something I've given a little thought to myself.
Now assuming the forum doesn't eat my post yet again..

I think any change needs to start from first principles .. belts are celestial objects and they move .. now modelling a whole load of roids all moving at different velocities would be a nightmare so we need to simplify things.
A system can spawn a number of belts per day with a total number of roids .. pretty much as at the moment.. except they dont all spawn at once (except in starter systems which remain exactly as they currently are).
For all other systems roids spawn in segments of say 5-10 roids and they a segment only spawns when scanned for.
Now before I go further then mechanics for existing grav sites remain unaltered..
For every thing else there are 2 classes of belt segments, basic and enhanced.
Basic segments only spawn the 2 base types of ore for that sec level/region and only the base yield types.
Enhanced segments can spawn all the ore types for that sec level/region and both base and high yield types.
Base segments can be picked up with a normal ship scanner, Enhanced segments require the use of core probes(always 100% chance of detection on single scan).
Both base and enhanced type segments are *moving* with a velocity of (say) between 50m/s and 120m/s. The base types have the higher speed making them more condusive to mining with frigates/cruisers or AB fitted barges/exhumers..
So you now have to keep up with your roids to mine them...
Not only that when you bookmark a segment after scanning for it ...when you jump to it it will be moving .. and moving away from you.. so you now have to catch up, and keep up. Note this also applies when warping to somebody who's already in the belt (current game mechanic of warping to somebody who's moving). If the segment has moved more than 200km by the time you arrive you arrive in empty space.
Roids are only removed from a belt's segment list if they're mined out, otherwise they appear when scanned for until the list is exhausted.

Futher changes to some sort of interactive model require more thought, and would at least require additional mid slots on barges/exhumers and should mandate the use of a survey scanner. To make any interactive model worth while, some form of structure modelling for each roid would be required. However, this has an upside. Who says all roids are solid? Perhaps they contain voids? perhaps hitting a void automatically shuts down a stripminer? Who says all voids are hollow? Perhaps they contain another ore type, or worthless rock, or ice, or even gas? The gas may not be inert, or it may be under pressure; after all blowouts are a major problem to the oil industry
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-12-21 13:30:25 UTC
As long as bots can work with OCR, its just a matter of programming it to work with ANY visual system (PI/Probing/Etc...)

And since Bots are businesses for their creators, its not hard to get good programmers for the task.

So, without 100% first hand experience I can speculate (and probably be right about it) that there a lot of PI/Probing bots

They could be slower than humans in those task, maybe less accurate, but the principle is simple enough to automate it.



Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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