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Bishops condemn marrying heretics to convert them
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2015-02-15 11:00:09 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The dogmas, by the way, are in fact not changing. (Doctrines are, though.) But they aren't all saying "Do not do the thing, go do the other thing.", either. Central dogmas are things like "The universe is ordered and thus accessible to systematic study."


Yes, my apologies, it would seem that I mixed up words when I wrote that part.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#142 - 2015-02-15 11:06:45 UTC
The Scientific Method is the Same in Function as a Prayer for Understanding.

It is Foolishness to State that the Amarr Religions are not Capable of Accommodating Scientific Advances.

For it is Scientific Inquiry that leads to the Creation of New Books of Scripture.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Albizu Zateki
Doomheim
#143 - 2015-02-15 14:53:55 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:


Mr Zateki's attempts to hide his blood-thirst behind scientific pretense where never that successful.
At least to me, it has been obvious from the beginning.

Worship your bloody god if you will, I could not care less. But at least do it with heart and courage, and suffer the consequences of your offensive faith.

Do not bring us "scientific" argument to support a blood-drenched faith!

Regardless of religion, whoever still keeps a moral standard for themselves will easily see through your "science" for what it really is. An ode to a vampire god, blasphemy to the Empire and sheer madness to everyone else.

This is the shame I was talking about. Open your ears and listen what they say about you.
There can be no retort, no respite, no peace with the blood-drinkers.
Faithful Amarrians discussing faith with them only strengthens their arguments. Such as the one above. For shame.

I will agree, it does not matter.
If they do share dogmas and doctrines, they are heretics so you must burn them
If they do not, they are infidels so you must reclaim them

In any case, do something!




My dear,

I am simply a person who has grown tired of the hypocrisy of the Empire from a theological standpoint.

And I put it to you that the Amarr faith is at least as blood-drenched as the Sani Sabik.

You are right, of course. It is futile to try to discuss the Sani Sabik with "Faithful Amarrians." But their ignorance is not my responsibility...anymore.


"Bloody Omir's coming back. Monsters from the endless black. Wading through a crimson flood, Omir's come to drink your blood."
Albizu Zateki
Doomheim
#144 - 2015-02-15 15:02:32 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
The Scientific Method is the Same in Function as a Prayer for Understanding.

It is Foolishness to State that the Amarr Religions are not Capable of Accommodating Scientific Advances.

For it is Scientific Inquiry that leads to the Creation of New Books of Scripture.



The Amarr are very adept in the Sciences. I never said otherwise.

But the adoption of scientific modes of thought and new technologies can be painfully slow. Especially if it goes against current theological modes of thought.

And they adopt new Scripture with even more reservation....unless it benefits those in power.

"Bloody Omir's coming back. Monsters from the endless black. Wading through a crimson flood, Omir's come to drink your blood."
Albizu Zateki
Doomheim
#145 - 2015-02-15 15:24:54 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


I am afraid that we are not talking about the same thing sir. You are merely speaking about dogma.

I am talking about Scripture, not mere dogma. Dogma is just a tiny part of the whole.

The dogmatic part telling, as you crudely say, "do not do something, and do that instead", is either doctrinal or dogmatic conclusions formed upon facts, actually. You should read deeper into it and you will see the facts you speak of, as I believe you only refer to the core, most famous parts of holy scripture like the Book of Missions, Reclaiming, or Revelations, or the Epitoth.

Those dogmatic conclusions, especially the ones concerning those core, old pieces of scripture, have sometimes been updated through new additions as progress made its natural way into Amarr society. The same way a historian will look at original texts of old as they were written, with all their flaws and misunderstandings and imperfection, it is important to keep in mind that the Scriptures, albeit the Word of God, have been written by mortal hands, in a mortal language. It is also fundamental to understand that it is due to this central value that Scriptures are not never-changing. Scripture is evolving at every minute, enriched by new texts and Knowledge.

You may already know that some scriptural parts have been made apocryphon over the years. Not the core parts of course, but some were not far from that, especially some Tetrimonic texts. As much as political and societal evolution happens, so does Scripture.

If you are implying that philosophy and epistemology is not about Knowledge, I am not sure what you learned at Hedion, if I may be so bold to say so.




Actually, I'm mostly trying to speak of history and Imperial hypocrisy.

The differences between any religious system could be argued until the stars go out and never accomplish anything further than an agreement to disagree.

I learned a great deal at Hedion. But you know, "When the ears hear only the mouth shouting."


"Bloody Omir's coming back. Monsters from the endless black. Wading through a crimson flood, Omir's come to drink your blood."
Albizu Zateki
Doomheim
#146 - 2015-02-15 15:41:04 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
lies, lies, blatant disregard to historical facts that even CONCORD has in it's history books, more lies, thinly veiled insults, sophistry....



If I say, " If one object A exerts a force FA on a second object B, then B simultaneously exerts a force FB on A, and the two forces are equal and opposite: FA = −FB."

All you hear is, "Bloody Omir's coming back. Monsters from the endless black. Wading through a crimson flood. Omir's come to drink your blood."

Get over yourself. You are not the voice of the Empress or even the Theology Council, let alone a voice of Reason and Understanding.

My status as "heretic" is completely due to the narrow-minded willful ignorance of the Conservative mindset of incense-sniffers like you.

Oh and look, I'm STILL listed as a member of Hedion University. Do you have something witty to say against that FACT?

Don't strain your brain about it sweetheart. I'll be taking a "Professor Emeritus" position far from the University where I don't have to deal with the likes of you.


By His light, and His will.

"Bloody Omir's coming back. Monsters from the endless black. Wading through a crimson flood, Omir's come to drink your blood."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#147 - 2015-02-15 16:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Albizu Zateki wrote:
Oh and look, I'm STILL listed as a member of Hedion University. Do you have something witty to say against that FACT?

Don't strain your brain about it sweetheart. I'll be taking a "Professor Emeritus" position far from the University where I don't have to deal with the likes of you.


You would be listed as a member for the same reason every other capsuleer who graduated from Hedion University's capsule program is: Because you are an alumnus that hasn't joined another corporation yet. Unless Hedion is even more disturbingly liberal than I had been lead to believe, they would never employ a declared Sabik follower as a teacher. Seeing as being a declared heretic is a crime and would get you reported to the MIO and arrested.

But then again, capsuleers are frequently allowed to get away with murder, so maybe you are just exploiting your piloting license to say things that no baseliner could get away with saying. It would still be extremely poor form on Hedion to keep you on staff and allow you to continue poisoning the minds of your students.


Quote:
By His light and His will


If you were following His light and His will, you would have not disgraced yourself and your heritage by embracing Sabik heresies.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#148 - 2015-02-15 17:52:00 UTC
I have to admit I have made some poor choices in the pursuit of a man before, I still think love is more powerful than whatever dogma and doctrine the Empire puts out there. I suppose it is a good thing I am a capsuleer too because I am sure such a statement would be seen as something dangerous. In any case, while I don't know how popular the practice of marrying someone to "convert" them is, no one is going to be able to stop interfaith unions, not even the Empress herself has that sort of power.

More and more I am seeing that the tribals views, even if they feel strange and primitive to me, are more accomdating to actual human nature. I find this a sad state of affairs.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#149 - 2015-02-15 18:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
ValentinaDLM wrote:
I have to admit I have made some poor choices in the pursuit of a man before, I still think love is more powerful than whatever dogma and doctrine the Empire puts out there.


Are you still with this person?

If not, then no, it isn't.


I have loved and found strength in God since I was born. No relationship with a person I have ever had has been as powerful, or as enduring, or as loving, nor could it ever. If you doubt the strength of it, then it is because it is something you have never known. If you had, you never would have abandoned Him.

For that, I feel sorry for you.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#150 - 2015-02-15 19:00:36 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
I have to admit I have made some poor choices in the pursuit of a man before, I still think love is more powerful than whatever dogma and doctrine the Empire puts out there.


Are you still with this person?

If not, then no, it isn't.


I have loved and found strength in God since I was born. No relationship with a person I have ever had has been as powerful, or as enduring, or as loving, nor could it ever. If you doubt the strength of it, then it is because it is something you have never known. If you had, you never would have abandoned Him.

For that, I feel sorry for you.

No, I am not. In fact I never was, I did try really hard though to get with him, and in the process did a few things I openly admit I am not proud of. I still feel it was worth the risk, despite the fact I gained nothing. I have to wonder, have you ever really felt romantic love for another? I can't imagine you could see anything as stronger if you had....

You are also quite correct that I have never believed, but I tried really hard to do that too. I am convinced now that we need to save ourselves and that no God will do it for us, hence why I have faith inthe Master, he is a man who actually intends on facilitating this and not with empty promises of the divine but real, observable actions.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#151 - 2015-02-15 19:12:48 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
I have to wonder, have you ever really felt romantic love for another? I can't imagine you could see anything as stronger if you had.....


It is different. I have myself a very hard time to understand what makes people come to compare the two.... ? Would it not be like asking a... loved one, which is more important : him/her, or your dreams.

I sounds rather unhealthy, and sad.

ValentinaDLM wrote:
You are also quite correct that I have never believed, but I tried really hard to do that too. I am convinced now that we need to save ourselves and that no God will do it for us, hence why I have faith inthe Master, he is a man who actually intends on facilitating this and not with empty promises of the divine but real, observable actions.


I do not understand. You are convinced that we need to save ourselves (which goes in accordance with Scripture), but you are still expecting to be spoon fed by Kuvakei instead of saving... yourself ?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#152 - 2015-02-15 19:29:18 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
You are also quite correct that I have never believed, but I tried really hard to do that too. I am convinced now that we need to save ourselves and that no God will do it for us, hence why I have faith inthe Master, he is a man who actually intends on facilitating this and not with empty promises of the divine but real, observable actions.


God doesn't do it for you. He gives us the strength to be able to do it ourselves.

As for real, observable actions... the Amarr Empire. God gave us the strength to build the greatest civilization in this universe. Your Nation, meanwhile, has survived like a cockroach, but it has not thrived, and its only observable actions have been to commit evil.
Thea Isotalo
Doomheim
#153 - 2015-02-15 19:29:21 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Thea Isotalo wrote:
You can believe what you want, but that don't change science.


No one has denied this.



Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The dogmas, by the way, are in fact not changing. (Doctrines are, though.) But they aren't all saying "Do not do the thing, go do the other thing.", either. Central dogmas are things like "The universe is ordered and thus accessible to systematic study." Actually, one could summarize most of the body of dogma thusly:

  • There is order in the cosmos: This order shows itself in the laws of nature as well as in an ethical law. Both are to be discovered.
  • There is a source of the cosmos and its order: God.

Those propositions aren't scientific facts - at least not in the narrow sense of 'science' which should be properly qualified as 'natural science' - but the dogmas are in fact: Facts.




Ok, hold it right there. I think I see where the disconnect is.

Scope puts out a thing, says Amarr peeps say mixing religion is bad.

Blooder points out how close the two faiths are.

Panties get twisted.

Blooder points out history, and quotes almost verbatim from what I can access from my computer.

More panties get twisted because he's a Blooder.

Blooder gets sand in his panties because Amarr aren't nice to other faiths and shows more history to prove it.

Amarr puts steel wool down their shorts to disprove anything Blooder says because he's a Blooder.

Blooder gives Amarr the finger and goes off to be with other Blooders.


I think both sides are thinking with their holy books and not with their brains.

Not to disparage the many actual scientific accomplishments of the Amarr, but I think when you start using dogma to define science, you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma (or scripture, or philosophy or what have you). Not easily anyway.

And I don't think it's nice for people who keep slaves to be moralizing on anyone.



BRCE: Mission Statement!
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#154 - 2015-02-15 19:32:02 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:

...More and more I am seeing that the tribals views, even if they feel strange and primitive to me, are more accomdating to actual human nature. I find this a sad state of affairs.


What's there to be sad about? We have it right and the slavers and their supporters have it wrong. Just embrace that fact and move forward.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2015-02-15 19:40:56 UTC
Thea Isotalo wrote:

Not to disparage the many actual scientific accomplishments of the Amarr, but I think when you start using dogma to define science, you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma (or scripture, or philosophy or what have you). Not easily anyway.





Uh.. do you have any specific example in mind of failures due to new scientific ideas conflicting with dogma ?
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#156 - 2015-02-15 19:44:40 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:

...More and more I am seeing that the tribals views, even if they feel strange and primitive to me, are more accomdating to actual human nature. I find this a sad state of affairs.


What's there to be sad about? We have it right and the slavers and their supporters have it wrong. Just embrace that fact and move forward.


I suppose it saddens me because I never had a positive view of my heritage or Matari culture in general, until quite recently. I am not about to declare it correct, because I don't hold those views, but I have to admit as time goes on my view of the Republic gets worse but My views on matari culture get more postive. It is fair to say I am a bit conflicted now when I think about my heritage.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#157 - 2015-02-15 20:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Thea Isotalo wrote:
Not to disparage the many actual scientific accomplishments of the Amarr, but I think when you start using dogma to define science, you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma (or scripture, or philosophy or what have you). Not easily anyway.


We don't use dogma to define science. We use science to define dogma.

Do we accept new findings slowly? Yes, we do. As it should be. We believe in being patient with our findings, and taking the time to validate and understand them. That is, afterall, the scientific process. A theory must be tested, over and over again, against previously held truths, in order to determine that is in fact true. And for Amarr, as we are not a secular nation, we must also determine what the finding means, which slows down the process further.

You will find that we have done this with even theological matters, as it was a decade ago when we briefly lifted the Suppression Edict on the Order of St. Tetrimon in order to study ancient scrolls that they had discovered.

We are not a blind nation.

Why is Mr. Zateki dismissed? Because these points of debate that have been made in this thread have been argued thousands of times by wiser men over the thousands of years since the Sani Sabik cult was formed, and their status as heretics remains. If any of their sects was to be declared acceptable, it would have happened long before now. It is our duty, as faithful Amarr, to accept the findings of those who came before us, instead of pridefully thinking that, somehow, we know better than our forebearers, that we have come up with some new argument that no one else has thought of before.

If Mr. Zateki actually uncovered legitimately certified new findings, such as the Tetrimon scrolls eleven years ago, then, like in that previous case, it would probably be considered and discussed by the Theology Council, compared against what we know today, and a ruling would be made based on the findings.

Quote:
And I don't think it's nice for people who keep slaves to be moralizing on anyone.


This argument adds nothing to this thread except to say that you believe slavery is evil. That is not a belief that we share. I, as a former slave, found it a happy and fulfilling life. In turn, there are many, many things in the other empires that you people believe is good that I and most Amarr would consider evil. But all of those, similarly, would be outside the scope of this thread. So, let's not distract from the topic. Frankly, even this discussion of science is already well beyond the subject of this thread.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#158 - 2015-02-15 20:27:41 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:

...More and more I am seeing that the tribals views, even if they feel strange and primitive to me, are more accomdating to actual human nature. I find this a sad state of affairs.


What's there to be sad about? We have it right and the slavers and their supporters have it wrong. Just embrace that fact and move forward.


I suppose it saddens me because I never had a positive view of my heritage or Matari culture in general, until quite recently. I am not about to declare it correct, because I don't hold those views, but I have to admit as time goes on my view of the Republic gets worse but My views on matari culture get more postive. It is fair to say I am a bit conflicted now when I think about my heritage.

Well maybe it's time to join TLF then, wink wink nudge nudge. Their loyalty markets are less saturated now, or so I've heard.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#159 - 2015-02-15 20:40:18 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:

...More and more I am seeing that the tribals views, even if they feel strange and primitive to me, are more accomdating to actual human nature. I find this a sad state of affairs.


What's there to be sad about? We have it right and the slavers and their supporters have it wrong. Just embrace that fact and move forward.


I suppose it saddens me because I never had a positive view of my heritage or Matari culture in general, until quite recently. I am not about to declare it correct, because I don't hold those views, but I have to admit as time goes on my view of the Republic gets worse but My views on matari culture get more postive. It is fair to say I am a bit conflicted now when I think about my heritage.

Well maybe it's time to join TLF then, wink wink nudge nudge. Their loyalty markets are less saturated now, or so I've heard.


Been there, done that and it was a mistake then and it would be a mistake now. any support of the republic would be counter to what I see as the best interest of the people there. You also seem to think I do what I do for financial gain, this is very inaccurate.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#160 - 2015-02-15 22:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Thea Isotalo wrote:
Not to disparage the many actual scientific accomplishments of the Amarr, but I think when you start using dogma to define science, you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma (or scripture, or philosophy or what have you). Not easily anyway.

And I don't think it's nice for people who keep slaves to be moralizing on anyone.

You are aware, I hope, that natural science isn't working in a vaccum, but that there are presuppositions without which natural science is naught? It presupposes that observeation, in general, works. It presupposes that there is something to be observed. It presupposes that deductive and more importantly inductive logic works. To be able to assume that inductive logic works, some uniformity of nature needs to be assumed. ...

All of these assumptions must be made and accepted before you can start to do natural science. They are axioms you need to start the endeavour.

All of these assumptions are, basically, coverd by Amarrian dogma. And while we don't use natural science to define dogma, we use 'scientific' methods - in the widest sense - to justify dogma. Science in it's entirety is more than just natural science which exclusively deals with physical world and its phenomena. Science, in it's entriety, is the ordered system of knowledge, the process of producing and ordering that knowledge through systematic study and critical reflection, as well as proliferating this body of knowledge through teaching.

While the question of whether the universe is ordered in a way open to systematic investigation by observation and experimentation can't be possibly answered by systematic investigation by observation and experimentation - at least not without getting circular - there are other ways to treat that question systematically and critically. They don't fall into the scopr of the study of the physical world, though, but into the purview of the study of preconditions for the feasibility of natural science.

So, if Lt. Kernher says that "We use science to define dogma.", then this shouldn't be misunderstood as us using the tools that are proper for the investigation of physical phenomena to reflect on the premises that need to be fulfilled for that investigation to work out.

In conclusion: Claiming that "when you start using dogma to define science, you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma" is like claiming that when you accept that deductive logic works, "you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma". Or, put more generally: If you accept the preconditions of natural science, "you're setting yourself up for failure because you can't accept new ideas and modalities that go against dogma".

Whether you hold the axioms of natural science to be true simply because you want to do natural science or because you are an Amarr faithful doesn't matter in this regard: If what you say is true, scientist are generally set up for failure.