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Getting back into EVE - Level 3 Ship Choices
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Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#41 - 2015-02-14 22:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Ran some missions today. Two weren't on the list, as they can't be blitzed. One I screw up with the stop watch, and the last one was Seven's Prison Facility.

Seven's Prison Facility:

Total time was 1m 24s.

Mission time was 27sec. (that didn't beat the Mach's time of 21sec)

I fitted two Tracking Computers, and 2 Sensor Boosters. (my targeting time for Cruisers was 2.2 sec)

Warp in 24sec, warp out 33 sec. (I was webbed, and it took a little more time to get away)

Hopefully, I can get a couple more in tonight.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#42 - 2015-02-15 01:50:24 UTC
Just blitzed two missions in the Ferox.

Success Comes at a Price:

Travel time was 1m 14s

Mission time was 56 secCry

Guristas Spies:

Travel time was 1m 37s

Mission time was 43secSmile

That's it for today, I'll try and do more tomorrow.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2015-02-15 10:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ion Kirst wrote:


8.23AU/s! For L4s. And why would you want to do that?


Cut out as much time in warp as possible, time after all is money. Interceptor warp speeds in a battleship is awesome.
Ion Kirst wrote:

Show fit.


[Machariel, speedy]

Corpus C-Type Large Armor Repairer
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II


Hobgoblin II x19
Phased Plasma L x3684
Cap Booster 400 x10
Tracking Speed Script x6

+ High grade ascendancies and WS 618.


Not the fit I would use for level 3s as its overtanked and lacks the sebo for faster locking.

[Machariel, Level - 3]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II


Hobgoblin II x5
Warden II x4

Use highgrade Ascendancies (and for extra pimp, slap in an omega in slot six to get 8.42au/sec warp speed)

More firepower than the ferox (1194 from the guns alone), align time 8.51 seconds, 1505 m/s with the MWD. If you want to replace the Sig amplifiers with 2x nano then you get an align time of 6.18 sec and a top speed of 1784 m/s (fun fact: with the MWD on it aligns in 9.45 sec).

Split the guns into 2 groups of two and one group of 3, this will allow you alpha target faster and wastes less DPS, align your ship so when the mission is finished you will warp instantly, Ammo to be used will depend on the mission but always carrry titanium sabot and have three tracking scripts for close range targets.

This thing will **** any level 3 mission with the ship itself costing 816 million. This ship will potentially hit 100mil/hr from level 3s but bank on at least 90 mil/hr which is on par with the very best income possible from the very best truesec anom systems in null being run by a ratting carrier. Its disgustingly good.

Not to knock the ferox. I do like that you are arguing with passion for this ship and are trying to push it to its limits and I am always in favour for getting more people to think outside the cancer that is battleclinic approved ships and fits but it cant beat a mach in this activity. That said though, you are likely making more than most level 4 mission runnersBlink
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#44 - 2015-02-15 12:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
baltec1 wrote:

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L

More firepower than the ferox (1194 from the guns alone), align time 8.51 seconds, 1505 m/s with the MWD. If you want to replace the Sig amplifiers with 2x nano then you get an align time of 6.18 sec and a top speed of 1784 m/s (fun fact: with the MWD on it aligns in 9.45 sec).

Split the guns into 2 groups of two and one group of 3, this will allow you alpha target faster and wastes less DPS, align your ship so when the mission is finished you will warp instantly, Ammo to be used will depend on the mission but always carrry titanium sabot and have three tracking scripts for close range targets.

This thing will **** any level 3 mission with the ship itself costing 816 million. This ship will potentially hit 100mil/hr from level 3s but bank on at least 90 mil/hr which is on par with the very best income possible from the very best truesec anom systems in null being run by a ratting carrier. Its disgustingly good.

Not to knock the ferox. I do like that you are arguing with passion for this ship and are trying to push it to its limits and I am always in favour for getting more people to think outside the cancer that is battleclinic approved ships and fits but it cant beat a mach in this activity. That said though, you are likely making more than most level 4 mission runnersBlink



OK, if you are going to EFT expound your brilliance across the universe you at least have to be honest. That fit does 722 dps, not 1194. If you swap to T2 ammo to get that dps, you just increased mission time by burning at all the npcs that aren't in range. Also don't fit Nanos, the rule to live by for any ship that is large is 10s warp time is the maximum you have to endure if you are fitting a MWD, and you know why.

Next, please don't fud around saying that 90mil/hour is better than nullsec... a system full of Sanctums/Anoms will pull well over 100mil/hour in bounties alone. Null also has a chance of a rare drop. Also no one can maintain 90mil/hour running missions, not even you. It is possible in short isolated bursts, but over long term, including lp conversion time and other costs you get no where near that.

Mach is sound advice, personally I like the Gila better as it is cheaper, aligns faster has more speed. Also you don't have to lock most of the npcs and it has a respectable 3au/s base warp.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2015-02-15 12:19:53 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


OK, if you are going to EFT expound your brilliance across the universe you at least have to be honest. That fit does 722 dps, not 1194.


Try using the right ammo.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

If you swap to T2 ammo to get that dps, you just increased mission time by burning at all the npcs that aren't in range.


So dont use it. Use faction or t1.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Also don't fit Nanos, the rule to live by for any ship that is large is 10s warp time is the maximum you have to endure if you are fitting a MWD, and you know why.


Do tell.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-02-15 12:24:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


OK, if you are going to EFT expound your brilliance across the universe you at least have to be honest. That fit does 722 dps, not 1194.


Try using the right ammo.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

If you swap to T2 ammo to get that dps, you just increased mission time by burning at all the npcs that aren't in range.


So dont use it. Use faction or t1.


Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Also don't fit Nanos, the rule to live by for any ship that is large is 10s warp time is the maximum you have to endure if you are fitting a MWD, and you know why.


Do tell.



Don't tell me to use the right ammo Mr Smug when you are the one posting the fit with the claims. And the second quote there is the reason why you didn't use the "right" ammo. If you want the range you drop the dps, and vice versa. Easy concept.

If you have a MWD on any ship the align time to warp is only as long as one cycle of the MWD.

I am not saying your advice is bad, I am just calling you out for exaggerating the points that make it good. Just be honest, and being honest means you have to admit the Mach might be king, but only by 10-15% faster than a Ishtar or Gila and LP income in and of itself is a fickle, time-consuming beast.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2015-02-15 12:35:24 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


Don't tell me to use the right ammo Mr Smug when you are the one posting the fit with the claims.


It has a range of 67km with that ammo, the sabot is for tracking, as I said.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

If you have a MWD on any ship the align time to warp is only as long as one cycle of the MWD.


¿Que?
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I am not saying your advice is bad, I am just calling you out for exaggerating the points that make it good..


Im not.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-02-15 12:47:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


Don't tell me to use the right ammo Mr Smug when you are the one posting the fit with the claims.


It has a range of 67km with that ammo, the sabot is for tracking, as I said.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

If you have a MWD on any ship the align time to warp is only as long as one cycle of the MWD.


¿Que?
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I am not saying your advice is bad, I am just calling you out for exaggerating the points that make it good..


Im not.



Yes you did talk about Titanium for tracking, but you spouted off Hail dps numbers with it. Again, very slight and subtle distinction to exaggerate the benefit and minimize the drawback.

I know you know how to use a MWD to get to warp faster, but it doesn't matter, if 3s per mission is important enough to nerf your lock time, or your tracking, or you dps, go ahead and swap to a nano... I wouldn't

Last point, you exaggerated just about everything in your post and you know it. Ascendency implant numbers to boost your warp times??? really? Stoic himself didn't even use T2 warp rigs because there was no benefit/cost to going above 5.2AU/s. Also his max isk/hour at 2000lp was 86mil... you jump around like a school kid shouting 100mil, but 90mil for everyone else?

Yeah, Mach rules. I said it on the first page. Mach or Gila >>>>>> Everything, but you took posting for your own glorification to the next level by debating a poor guy trying out other ships for himself.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2015-02-15 12:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Yes you did talk about Titanium for tracking, but you spouted off Hail dps numbers with it. Again, very slight and subtle distinction to exaggerate the benefit and minimize the drawback.


Hail gets you 1209, try again.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I know you know how to use a MWD to get to warp faster


That will slow you down, you never fire up your MWD to get into warp on a battleship.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Last point, you exaggerated just about everything in your post and you know it. Ascendency implant numbers to boost your warp times??? really? Stoic himself didn't even use T2 warp rigs because there was no benefit/cost to going above 5.2AU/s. Also his max isk/hour at 2000lp was 86mil... you jump around like a school kid shouting 100mil, but 90mil for everyone else?


No, that's not why he didn't use t2, he didn't use them because he couldn't fit them at the time, he also didn't fit the implants I use. I'm one of the people that was part of the conversation that lead to this fit. That extra speed in warp does make a difference.

[/quote]
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-02-15 13:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Yes you did talk about Titanium for tracking, but you spouted off Hail dps numbers with it. Again, very slight and subtle distinction to exaggerate the benefit and minimize the drawback.


Hail gets you 1209, try again.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I know you know how to use a MWD to get to warp faster


That will slow you down, you never fire up your MWD to get into warp on a battleship.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Last point, you exaggerated just about everything in your post and you know it. Ascendency implant numbers to boost your warp times??? really? Stoic himself didn't even use T2 warp rigs because there was no benefit/cost to going above 5.2AU/s. Also his max isk/hour at 2000lp was 86mil... you jump around like a school kid shouting 100mil, but 90mil for everyone else?


No, that's not why he didn't use t2, he didn't use them because he couldn't fit them at the time, he also didn't fit the implants I use. I'm one of the people that was part of the conversation that lead to this fit. That extra speed in warp does make a difference.

[/quote]


Roll Those dps numbers... are your numbers... if you have a problem with them, look in the mirror and put the bottle down.

You don't fire the MWD to get into warp, you turn it off. Again, you don't need it in a Mach because of the align time being sub 9s, but I wouldn't be putting nano's on it to drop that. Mach is 9s, the maximum for any other ship is 10s... that was my point, it isn't a plus, its pretty even.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

Stoic did not have fitting problems, now you are just lying.(Pro tip, you don't need skills to fit T2 rigs, they still work). Which is funny because you are all over that thread, would thought you would remember your own postings.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2015-02-15 13:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Roll Those dps numbers... are your numbers... if you have a problem with them, look in the mirror and put the bottle down.


And you called BS while looking at the wrong ammo.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

You don't fire the MWD to get into warp, you turn it off. Again, you don't need it in a Mach because of the align time being sub 9s, but I wouldn't be putting nano's on it to drop that. Mach is 9s, the maximum for any other ship is 10s... that was my point, it isn't a plus, its pretty even.


One of his point was his ships align time, so I gave him the options and what it would give him. Context.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

Stoic did not have fitting problems, now you are just lying.(Pro tip, you don't need skills to fit T2 rigs, they still work). Which is funny because you are all over that thread, would thought you would remember your own postings.


[quote]

You wont find it in that thread as this came from another thread about pirate faction BS rebalance changes. As was said, this came about because a few of us were talking about my attempts to beat his ishtar in a raven.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#52 - 2015-02-15 13:18:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Roll Those dps numbers... are your numbers... if you have a problem with them, look in the mirror and put the bottle down.


And you called BS while looking at the wrong ammo.



Ummmm again, You posted the ammo bud. Roll

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2015-02-15 13:22:12 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Roll Those dps numbers... are your numbers... if you have a problem with them, look in the mirror and put the bottle down.


And you called BS while looking at the wrong ammo.



Ummmm again, You posted the ammo bud. Roll


And all it would take is for you to click on the right one. I shouldn't have to hold your hand in this.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#54 - 2015-02-15 13:58:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Roll Those dps numbers... are your numbers... if you have a problem with them, look in the mirror and put the bottle down.


And you called BS while looking at the wrong ammo.



Ummmm again, You posted the ammo bud. Roll


And all it would take is for you to click on the right one. I shouldn't have to hold your hand in this.


Complete fud

Using Hail gets the DPS, not the range or tracking... getting the range or tracking, and there isn't the DPS. You disingenuously attempted to pass both the DPS and the range/tracking off as the same. You got called out, it is ok, you just aren't on your A game today and no amount of wiggling or bending what you said is going to help you.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#55 - 2015-02-15 14:04:33 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Complete fud

Using Hail gets the DPS, not the range or tracking... getting the range or tracking, and there isn't the DPS. You disingenuously attempted to pass both the DPS and the range/tracking off as the same. You got called out, it is ok, you just aren't on your A game today and no amount of wiggling or bending what you said is going to help you.


You are still using the wrong ammo.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#56 - 2015-02-15 14:44:43 UTC
Baltec,

Thank you for the comment on my attempts in my Ferox. I feel that I was giving it a run for the money, literally. I got some good numbers, and may get more. Never thought I was being stubborn, I just don't blindly accept everything I read in EVE posts.

I don't know, I'm thinking of stopping all this. I have seen the light, and maybe so have some others.

Sorry, but it may not be what you think.

The original "contest" was against Stoic's ship and numbers. But now you've brought in a ringer. You want everyone to bow down to the mighty Mach, the King of L3s.

Another thanks, because now you've actually added fuel to the fire. Look at all you have to do to the Mach and yourself in order to blitz ridiculously easy L3s in a few secs.

I stand by what I said about a Mach being over kill for L3s, and for the OP, or anyone else, it may not be the ship of choice. If I'm going to run a few L3s one evening, what the heck does it matter if I took a little longer to get them done in a cheaper ship. I guess the quicker they get done, the quicker we can all get back to RL.

Your Ascension Implants cost about 1.35B!
Your WS-618 cost about 550M.
The Mach and T2 rigs cost about 550M.

So that's about 2.5B on a ship to do L3s? When a much, much cheaper Ferox, i.e., can almost do as good.

Hopefully, the OP, (if he's still with us), and some others, will see the light too.

That Mach is crazy "over the top" for L3s. I'm not seeing it.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#57 - 2015-02-15 14:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
I decided to make sure i did a mission that you have done. I made sure to compare the ferox warp time

Ion Kirst wrote:

Guristas Spies:

Travel time was 1m 37s

Mission time was 43secSmile

same fit as before, but i also timed a ferox with 3 t1 warp speed rigs warping to the mission.

Ferox travel time 1min 59sec
Your mission time 43 sec
Ferox travel time back to station 1min 30 sec
Total estimated time: 4min 12 sec

Mach travel time 1min 46 sec ( This would have been slightly faster bc i got caught on the accel gate, but it wasnt drastic enough to make me reattempt. Meh)
Mission time 24sec
Travel time back to station 1min 16 sec
Total estimated mission time, 3min 26 sec

Ion Kirst wrote:

Baltec, one more thing, I see you just posted the mission times only. The point of this explained to me was that the Mach could warp to the mission and complete it before I would even get there.

I would just like to point out that my mission time for Seven's was 11 sec, while the difference in travel time w/o the accel gate for the mission above was 14 seconds in a one way trip. Had this mission been Seven's, I would have completed it before you landed on grid. Just sayin xD.


Ion Kirst wrote:

Also, I just want to make sure of the blitzs in those 3 missions.
...
Are you using a stop watch?

You have the right idea for the blitzes. If you're unsure, eve survival usually has the correct info (if not it usually in the comments).
Im using OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) to record, then going back and measuring the time.

Ion Krist wrote:

but in Chaosgrimms Mach, according to EFT, his align time is 10.4 sec

Make sure the MWD is turned off when viewing the stats, my align is 6.8


I assume by now you can see why the Mach is king of 3s.
Concerning missions like Seven's Prison Facility, if we break the mission down into parts it might look like:
* Travel
* Lock
* DPS

Where could you make headway?
The mach will always have a fit that will put it on grid before a battlecruiser, so you will always be at a disadvantage in travel time.
You cant beat the Mach in the DPSing portion because any faster would mean that you somehow managed to wreck the targets before you fired at them.
You could beat the Mach in Lock time, but would need to give up something so you cant do it consistently. And even if you filled your lows and meds with signal amps and scripted sebos, you'd only gain a little less than a 2 second advantage, which isnt enough to make up for the warp time even if the mission spawns in the same system as the agent

1400 arty also have very misleading paper DPS because the cycle time of your last volley never counts against you. My paper DPS @ all V is showing 745. If a mission took 3 volleys to complete, the paper outgoing dmg would be 37086. To get the approximate dps, I would need to divide by 2 cycles instead of 3, or 33.166. The paper dps is around 1118 instead of 745. 1400s can suffer from overkill issues, but only if there is enough of it to cause you need an extra cycle.

Ion Kirst wrote:

So that's about 2.5B on a ship to do L3s? When a much, much cheaper Ferox, i.e., can almost do as good.

mine only costs about 530mil (which isnt all that much when you consider its around the cost of two t2 fit maelstroms). Not to mention, you can always turn the Mach into a nice lvl 4 blitzer after you're done grinding, or resell
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2015-02-15 15:15:21 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:


That Mach is crazy "over the top" for L3s. I'm not seeing it.

-Kirst


Min/max isk earning.

What you say is true, you dont need it but if you want to get crazy income then you use the mach. With the above we can get the same income as null sec with all the safety of highsec.

Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#59 - 2015-02-15 16:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Chaosgrimm,

Just to keep things clear:

My mission was in system.

base to accel gate - 38sec

accel gate into mission - 22sec

mission time - 43sec

back to base - 37sec

total mission time 2m30s




-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#60 - 2015-02-15 16:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Ion Kirst wrote:
Chaosgrimm

Just to keep things clear:

My mission was in system.

base to accel gate - 38sec

accel gate into mission - 22sec

mission time - 43sec

back to base - 37sec

total mission time 2m30s

-Kirst

That's why i compare ferox warp time. missions dont spawn in the same place all the time, the mission i did was 1 jump away. It would have taken you around 4min 12 sec. If the machariel would have ran your instance of Guristas spies, it still would have won.