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Watch List- Require an Approval for Watch List Requests
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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2015-02-14 23:36:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
This just makes Supers even safer. -10

If you're getting the willies from the mere thought that people know you're online.....Maybe you should rethink your line of ships.

While on the one hand in makes supers safer. Having a watch list already makes them pretty safe. If you have all your threats watch listed you can just wait until they're all offline. So you never actually have to risk too much.

If you're about to dedicate capitals and you see your enemy has done logged in some scary pilots, isn't that keeping them safe? Took works both ways, and the current way it works isn't very encouraging to take a leap of faith.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#22 - 2015-02-15 09:27:24 UTC
Colette Kassia wrote:
Eliminating the use of Watch Lists for serendipitous intelligence gathering on random players sounds reasonable.

But I do think this free intel should be available for specific circumstances:
- People you have kill-rights on
- People who have kill-rights on you.
- Targets of bounties you've opted for. (one-sided, the target should not be tipped off to who is hunting them)
- All people on both sides of an active wardec.

I think restricting it to that would be fine.

If it were restricted to that, then you'd have shell corporation wardec watchlists, or small bounty opt-in watchlists. What you propose isn't a restriction, it's would in fact be a contractum trinius that would keep watchlists entirely intact.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#23 - 2015-02-15 11:00:40 UTC
Eve is about counters to mechanics. Watch list counters log offs.
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#24 - 2015-02-15 11:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Colette Kassia
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
If it were restricted to that, then you'd have shell corporation wardec watchlists, or small bounty opt-in watchlists. What you propose isn't a restriction, it's would in fact be a contractum trinius that would keep watchlists entirely intact.

Hmm. You are correct.

So clearly the bounty watchlisting option would have to go. As would the free intel for the wardec-ing party. Should the recipient of a wardec be able to see their aggressors coming? Maybe. It would not be unfair. I do think the kill-rights parts should remain as they are.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#25 - 2015-02-15 11:41:06 UTC
The recipients of wardecs do have tools to see their aggressors.

  • intel channels
  • scouts (rear, foward, etc.)
  • kill reports and killboards that state the location and time of ship losses and whodunnit
  • local (enhanced by setting aggressors to red)
  • overview (enhanced by setting aggressors to red)
  • d-scan
  • plain old eyeballs watching enemy ships, where they be, and what they be doing

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
159Pinky
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-02-15 13:13:06 UTC
Bad idea, yes this gives free intel to ppl who take the time to add other ppl to watchlist. So they invested something in it ( time ). You just want to avoid being added to a WL by hostiles for free ( an auto reject option ).
System works just fine, I still need to get eyes in other systems to actually see what some of my WL ppl are doing. The fact that they are online only gives me some information. It's not like an I WIN button of information.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#27 - 2015-02-15 14:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
159Pinky wrote:
Bad idea, yes this gives free intel to ppl who take the time to add other ppl to watchlist. So they invested something in it ( time ). You just want to avoid being added to a WL by hostiles for free ( an auto reject option ).
System works just fine, I still need to get eyes in other systems to actually see what some of my WL ppl are doing. The fact that they are online only gives me some information. It's not like an I WIN button of information.

"People invested time in creating a list." So?
"I have to do some other stuff after looking at the list" So?

As I see it, it removes the element of surprise, lifts the fog of war, and is ultimately unearned information that discourages tactical gameplay. I'd rather see organic, novel, inventive, and innovative player-driven methods and solutions come more to the fore, rather than reliance on the AMT (Account Monitoring Tool™).

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#28 - 2015-02-15 14:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
You can have both if you update the rules.

1) do the approval request for watch list

2) if you don't want approval request to go through, (you want to spy on them), it costs you ISk. 3 million a day for non Non wardec'd people. If you are at war or wardec'd, watch list is free. If it seems high, remember a Large pos costs roughly 16 million a day, a small is 4 million daily. The numbers can be adjusted downward but there has to be a significant enough financial hit to prevent people from watch listing half of eve for free.

3) once a week, a person can pay concord 100 million ISk to get the number of people who have a person watch listed (the names are not revealed, just the number of people stalking them.

the first two hours of a person being added to a watch list is free.

Some basic regulations, some bribery, and something to address temporary roamers.

Yaay!!!!
Hrothgar Nilsson
#29 - 2015-02-15 14:57:58 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
2) if you don't want approval request to go through, (you want to spy on them)

What's wrong with actually spying on them, or utilizing any number of existing mechanics and player-driven tactics performed during the course of actual gameplay to earn said information?

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#30 - 2015-02-15 18:00:54 UTC
I enjoy seeing when competitors log in and knowing when and where to find them, but let us be honest for a second, how the hell does a "watch list" even work? It makes about as much sense as local chat. They are both highly valued intelligence gathering tools with no effort required what so ever.

I'm all aboard the train that thinks local chat is stupid and that all space should be chatless like WH unless you say something. Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense.

On the same note, a watch list is working in a similar fashion. You click a few times and bam, you can now stalk someone with no effort on your part. It is unrealistic in every sense. At least make a game out of it. Design a module that launches trackers that latch onto ships, with the obvious limitation being you can only track said ship. Hit a pod with a tracker? Well now you can track every ship that pod enters. User pod jumps? Tough luck.

I say remove watch list all together and introduce something else that takes effort.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2015-02-15 18:06:46 UTC
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense.

The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. Blink) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#32 - 2015-02-15 18:26:48 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. Blink) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance.

Thanks for sharing the lore.

The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well.

The watchlist is a watchlist.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2015-02-15 18:33:29 UTC
The gates/beacons recognize that you go on/offline and distribute that information.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#34 - 2015-02-15 18:34:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The gates/beacons recognize that you go on/offline and distribute that information.

Thanks for the lore.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#35 - 2015-02-15 18:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
It appears there is some concern that this would severely impact the wardec and mercenary business.

How about watch lists only work in highsec? In lowsec there is a delay of 30 minutes. In nullsec & WH it doesn't work at all. It would be another feature that separates the security type. It is fairly simple lore wise to draw a story up to justify this.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#36 - 2015-02-15 20:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zepheros Naeonis
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense.

The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. Blink) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance.


Did not know this, thanks for sharing the info.

Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well.

The watchlist is a watchlist.

edit: eh, I guess if the gates track that as well, it wouldn't be "too" hard to have a watch list feature implimented from a realistic/lore stand point.

Although you do make a point regarding pilots in WH space.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-02-15 23:03:53 UTC
How about replacing watch list with something less granular? For example, corporation or alliance information could show number of pilots online, as well as total membership.
Alruan Shadowborn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-02-15 23:16:43 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
The Watch List is a huge tool for free information in every region of space in Eve.

I can add hostile super pilots into my watch list and immediately know as soon as they log in. If I see multiple super pilots logging in, I know that there is something going down that I should pay attention to.

I can add other WH pilots in popular holes to my watchlist. If I'm rolling holes and see some well known escalation pilots logging in, I know to roll to their hole to pay them a visit.

I can add Poitot Dot to my watchlist to see when he is going to roam around Deklein in his multiboxed maledictions looking for AFK ratter kills. And probably just dock up while he's online because I'm terrible at this game.

I can tell if pilots move to another system or set up a log off trap in my system based on adding them to the watch list.

All of this information is gained all because I added names to a list. That's it. Seeing when a character logs in is extremely valuable information- knowing when key pilots from your enemies are offline gives you an advantage. Knowing when someone is online allows us to evaluate play patterns to identify our prime window to strike or defend.

[/i].


It is not just the fact someone is on a list, but rather the fact that the people on that list employ predictable behaviour. You see WH dwellers online so you believe they are going to be ratting, why? Because they are predictable.

You see, if people do not act predictably, the only thing a watchlist tells you, is that they are online.
Alruan Shadowborn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-02-15 23:25:14 UTC
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense.

The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. Blink) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance.


Did not know this, thanks for sharing the info.

Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well.

The watchlist is a watchlist.

edit: eh, I guess if the gates track that as well, it wouldn't be "too" hard to have a watch list feature implimented from a realistic/lore stand point.

Although you do make a point regarding pilots in WH space.


Clone's clearly have a link back to a network in K Space, otherwise when you were podded in a WH you would suffer permadeath as the K space clone would not know of your death.

Therefore, when you log on or off, the link back to your Medical clone activates or deactivates.

Not too big a leap on that
Hrothgar Nilsson
#40 - 2015-02-16 00:17:25 UTC
What do lore and roleplay have to do with the discussion at hand?

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...