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Kiting Ships and Plex Warfare
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infra52x
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-02-12 01:46:18 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:
...
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.

...

Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.



You are doing it wrong.

Do not start your fight by spamming keep at range if you land inside a plex with a brawler waiting at zero. Consider other ways to pull away.

I also strongly suggest using dscan and use the intel it gives you to pick your engagements.



I used D-scan, saw plex empty, jumped in all fat dumb and happy, and was face melted by 3 recons sitting on the warpin beacon....
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#22 - 2015-02-12 02:25:32 UTC
infra52x wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:
...
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.

...

Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.



You are doing it wrong.

Do not start your fight by spamming keep at range if you land inside a plex with a brawler waiting at zero. Consider other ways to pull away.

I also strongly suggest using dscan and use the intel it gives you to pick your engagements.



I used D-scan, saw plex empty, jumped in all fat dumb and happy, and was face melted by 3 recons sitting on the warpin beacon....


lol

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#23 - 2015-02-12 08:55:48 UTC
Yeah. Going into a medium solo without previous intel is less effective choice than going into a large at range, when there are enough pilots in local in unknowns.

Welcome to Recons Online in Low Sec.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-02-14 10:49:10 UTC
This is good stuff.

1) Going into mediums in crowded/popular systems is gonna be risky at this point.

2) I fly a slicer pretty often that with my fit/skills and 8% worth of speed implants (zor's and a regular 3% is like 70m totally worth it) I get about 5500 m/s overheated. This is fast enough to slide past most people sitting at the beacon unless they have links, faction web/scram or both. If you can figure out who's likely piloting the other ship through some local detective work (easier in less crowded systems) and check out their profile or even their killboard you can often make an educated guess as to links/implants/shiny. Learn who flies with godmode link/snake/faction combos and avoid them; and learn which systems are popular amongst such pilots (hi heydieles!). Overheat mwd when you slide gate, spam your mwd key as soon as you land, burn straight ahead, barring perfect reaction time/positioning by the other pilot you should shoot past him as long as you're doing at least 5k.

You will get scammed and webbed the idea is to get nearly to speed with one mwd cycle to get outside point range. Keep in mind if you get scrammed you must reactivate mwd immediately when he loses scram because he's burning towards you with heated AB. And assuming you pull this off successfully you have to immediately turn into a 20k orbit to hold point as many brawlers will warp off as soon as they've missed you on the beacon.

3) No matter what you do there is an element of chance and if you happen to try this on an mwd fit brawler you'll die. Unless you fly a linked/snaked garmur; doing 9k overheated nothing will catch you.

In my opinion kiting is dominant currently in plex warfare because of the ability to dictate range and disengage easily; an AB brawler warping in on you is suicide while you can warp in on him with a better than 50/50 shot of burning past him. Brawler fits only excel in one situation (beacon camping) and they can still be bested there by a fast enough ship.
Arla Sarain
#25 - 2015-02-14 11:23:38 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


In my opinion kiting is dominant currently in plex warfare because of the ability to dictate range and disengage easily; an AB brawler warping in on you is suicide while you can warp in on him with a better than 50/50 shot of burning past him. Brawler fits only excel in one situation (beacon camping) and they can still be bested there by a fast enough ship.

So much truth in that one paragraph its likely to be cancerous.
This thread will now proceed ignoring it entirely and further comments about how kiting is weak will persist.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#26 - 2015-02-14 14:00:12 UTC
A lot of people just don't have the skill or understanding to fight long range.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#27 - 2015-02-14 22:21:09 UTC
tried to master kiting but seems to require a lot of fast actions that don't work out too well when you're >50ms from TQ
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#28 - 2015-02-14 22:40:04 UTC
AB Brawlers > MWD Brawlers > MWD Kiters > AB Brawlers...
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-02-15 02:49:22 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
AB Brawlers > MWD Brawlers > MWD Kiters > AB Brawlers...
MWD brawler is by no means a sure win over a kiter. If the kiter is still faster and is paying attention he will either wreck you as you try to burn to scram range or warp out. It's highly uncommon for an MWD ship to sit on the button as an AB landing on him is game over.

Slicer especially is dangerous to try and run down because flying into scorch with zero transversal is...unpleasant. And you can switch to multifreq immediately if caught.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#30 - 2015-02-15 02:55:40 UTC
An AB brawler is by no means a sure win over a MWD brawler either, I think his point stands and is true.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-02-15 07:15:25 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
An AB brawler is by no means sure win over a MWD brawler either, I think his point stands and is true.



Eh...elaborate? AB/scram/web vs MWD/scram/web brawl would seem to have a predictable result.
RonPaul Rox
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-02-15 07:45:37 UTC
1. guys, it makes no difference what direction your ship is pointed. if you are stationary, your accel speed will be the same in any direction.

2. whats important is burning in the opposite direction the ab guy is going, which usually means burning past him. Also, if he is more than 3k from you, just burn straight away or at a 90 degree angle

3. people sitting in the plex do get to dictate starting range, but you get to pick a ship that counters theirs. look at his killboard, bring a ship that will counter whatever he has. living in the warzone with a variety of ships ready to go makes this easy.

4. 99% of mwd brawl can catch mwd kite if you slingshot with overheat



i have a question for ab brawlers im too lazy to look up, does your ab not mess with your own tracking as much as it does your opponents'? if it does, mwd brawl vs ab brawl should b pretty even. TYIA



http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
Arla Sarain
#33 - 2015-02-15 11:33:42 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:

i have a question for ab brawlers im too lazy to look up, does your ab not mess with your own tracking as much as it does your opponents'? if it does, mwd brawl vs ab brawl should b pretty even. TYIA




Angular speed is relative so yeah. But it also depends on whether the MWD guy intends to orbit, in which case the penalty would still be lower because the speeds are cumulitive. Two webbed AB dudes orbiting each other are faster than a scram/webbed MWD and webbed AB user. Roughly 800m/s vs 600m/s transversal respectively.

Don't think it's a matter of tracking though, reather range control would be more important.
Justin Zaine
#34 - 2015-02-15 13:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Quote:
1. guys, it makes no difference what direction your ship is pointed. if you are stationary, your accel speed will be the same in any direction.

2. whats important is burning in the opposite direction the ab guy is going, which usually means burning past him. Also, if he is more than 3k from you, just burn straight away or at a 90 degree angle

3. people sitting in the plex do get to dictate starting range, but you get to pick a ship that counters theirs. look at his killboard, bring a ship that will counter whatever he has. living in the warzone with a variety of ships ready to go makes this easy.

4. 99% of mwd brawl can catch mwd kite if you slingshot with overheat


1. This is true, assuming we're both at a full stop. But if I had just exited warp and am slowing to a full stop, does my current speed - Even if it's only like 20 m/s - help me accelerate past him if I chose to burn straight ahead or is the difference in speed barely noticeable? I would assume that every little bit helps, but you have a good point.

2. Since you're aligned "nowhere" at a full stop, aren't you contradicting yourself by saying you should burn in the opposite direction that he's pointing in if he's also stopped? Theoretically it would take him the exact same amount of time to approach you from a full stop whether you burn behind him or in front of him. The only difference would be if he's orbiting the warp in or is burning toward or away from you at range.

3. I have yet to meet someone that will go more than 1 jump to re-ship just to kill some plexing frigate. Shiny ships yes. T1 or faction frigates, no. Plus if I re-shipped to counter every frigate out there I don't think I'd ever actually undock. I am frequently 5+ jumps from home station.

4. Manual piloting Twisted well...sometimes it works. MWD brawlers are a PITA.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#35 - 2015-02-15 14:00:50 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
An AB brawler is by no means sure win over a MWD brawler either, I think his point stands and is true.



Eh...elaborate? AB/scram/web vs MWD/scram/web brawl would seem to have a predictable result.

It would, because the AB brawler has the advantage of dictating range within scram range. But, like all things, the outcome depends on the situation. The MWD brawler still has the advantage of controlling the range outside of the scram range, which is also an advantage that should not be underestimated. For one example, an Ishkur setup as an MWD brawler, facing off with an AB brawler, the Ishkur could dance around the AB brawler using his MWD and let his drones do some serious damage to the AB brawlers tank, before committing to scram range to finish him off.

The same can be said of the MWD brawler vs. the MWD kiter. It would seem to have a fairly predictable result as well. In general, I think it's just a matter of time before the MWD brawler catches the MWD kiter with a heated web or scram.

But you're right it is definitely no sure thing, I mean there are some slow brawlers. For instance it would be pretty hard to catch a good kiter in a slow Assault Ship or something like that but nevertheless there are a lot of MWD brawler frigates that could get the job done.

If there is a counter to MWD kiters, it is probably a good MWD brawler... or just a better kiter.
RonPaul Rox
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-02-15 20:56:47 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:


1. This is true, assuming we're both at a full stop. But if I had just exited warp and am slowing to a full stop, does my current speed - Even if it's only like 20 m/s - help me accelerate past him if I chose to burn straight ahead or is the difference in speed barely noticeable? I would assume that every little bit helps, but you have a good point.

2. Since you're aligned "nowhere" at a full stop, aren't you contradicting yourself by saying you should burn in the opposite direction that he's pointing in if he's also stopped? Theoretically it would take him the exact same amount of time to approach you from a full stop whether you burn behind him or in front of him. The only difference would be if he's orbiting the warp in or is burning toward or away from you at range.

3. I have yet to meet someone that will go more than 1 jump to re-ship just to kill some plexing frigate. Shiny ships yes. T1 or faction frigates, no. Plus if I re-shipped to counter every frigate out there I don't think I'd ever actually undock. I am frequently 5+ jumps from home station.

4. Manual piloting Twisted well...sometimes it works. MWD brawlers are a PITA.


1. i think u are unable to control your ship until u hit full stop, u should test this yourself tho im not sure

2. 99% of the time an ab brawler will start approaching you before u drop out of warp, meaning he wont just be pointed at you, he will have momentum going in your direction, that momentum will work against him if he's really close and u burn past him.

3. i RARELY go more than 2 jumps from innia, so reshipping in innia / eha is easy. my default is mwd/scram/brawl, but im not stupid enough to warp in on a scram web kiter with that (again lol)

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-02-15 21:49:33 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:


1. This is true, assuming we're both at a full stop. But if I had just exited warp and am slowing to a full stop, does my current speed - Even if it's only like 20 m/s - help me accelerate past him if I chose to burn straight ahead or is the difference in speed barely noticeable? I would assume that every little bit helps, but you have a good point.

2. Since you're aligned "nowhere" at a full stop, aren't you contradicting yourself by saying you should burn in the opposite direction that he's pointing in if he's also stopped? Theoretically it would take him the exact same amount of time to approach you from a full stop whether you burn behind him or in front of him. The only difference would be if he's orbiting the warp in or is burning toward or away from you at range.

3. I have yet to meet someone that will go more than 1 jump to re-ship just to kill some plexing frigate. Shiny ships yes. T1 or faction frigates, no. Plus if I re-shipped to counter every frigate out there I don't think I'd ever actually undock. I am frequently 5+ jumps from home station.

4. Manual piloting Twisted well...sometimes it works. MWD brawlers are a PITA.


1. i think u are unable to control your ship until u hit full stop, u should test this yourself tho im not sure

2. 99% of the time an ab brawler will start approaching you before u drop out of warp, meaning he wont just be pointed at you, he will have momentum going in your direction, that momentum will work against him if he's really close and u burn past him.

3. i RARELY go more than 2 jumps from innia, so reshipping in innia / eha is easy. my default is mwd/scram/brawl, but im not stupid enough to warp in on a scram web kiter with that (again lol)



Being able to quickly reship to someone's counter is nice. This is where exceptionally versatile ships like the comet or Tristan really shine because you can't be sure of their fit until you land on grid with them.
Trey Kutoi
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2015-02-16 12:02:11 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:
[quote=Justin Zaine]

1. This is true, assuming we're both at a full stop. But if I had just exited warp and am slowing to a full stop, does my current speed - Even if it's only like 20 m/s - help me accelerate past him if I chose to burn straight ahead or is the difference in speed barely noticeable? I would assume that every little bit helps, but you have a good point.



when you drop out of warp, for 5 seconds, you are 'invulnerable' to being targeted unless you take an action after sliding the gate. this time is also the same time it takes to decelerate from your warp (unless plated or horrible agility) . if you try to move before this timer is up, you won't start at zero speed,

tbh, this time is better spent looking at the enemy ship and seeing what weapons are fit and what tactics might be used
Mr Duffo
SQUIDS.
#39 - 2015-02-16 13:05:55 UTC
keep at range is your death when you land. brawler frig is coming overheated mwd towards you so you have to fly past him so he will slingshot out of scram.

Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir!

Never forget! #OICXmassacre2014
Justin Zaine
#40 - 2015-02-16 13:40:33 UTC
Trey Kutoi wrote:
RonPaul Rox wrote:
[quote=Justin Zaine]

1. This is true, assuming we're both at a full stop. But if I had just exited warp and am slowing to a full stop, does my current speed - Even if it's only like 20 m/s - help me accelerate past him if I chose to burn straight ahead or is the difference in speed barely noticeable? I would assume that every little bit helps, but you have a good point.



when you drop out of warp, for 5 seconds, you are 'invulnerable' to being targeted unless you take an action after sliding the gate. this time is also the same time it takes to decelerate from your warp (unless plated or horrible agility) . if you try to move before this timer is up, you won't start at zero speed,

tbh, this time is better spent looking at the enemy ship and seeing what weapons are fit and what tactics might be used


I had heard about this, but for some reason I thought it was 10 seconds. Haven't really tested it much yet though

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
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