EVE General Discussion

Implying that PvPing in a PvP game is a fault.

Implying that a Playstyle in a game is valid/invalid is a fault.

If CCP Devs did disagree with it, it would be on the basis of comercial success for a game, which we are not discussing. You're second point was a restatement of what I said, with an additional statement related to commercial success.

Enjoyment is not part of game design. It's a by-product.

Commercial success is dependent on broad enjoyment. Enjoyment is dependent on the way a specific game works. These two concepts are separate.

And yes, I design games as a hobby (was a college major before I switched to linguistics and then dropped out and then went for CAD). Mostly board and card games, never tried my hand at video games. Had a few minor successes financially, but nothing that ever broke the bank. But it's not like I'm trying to quit my day job for it.

Not in the slightest. The game is designed to be a challenge in some way. Whether or not people enjoy that challenge is an entirely different consideration.

The challenge is not intended to be fun. It is intended to be challenging.

Enjoyment is not a consideration that affects game design. I can't make that any plainer.

Everything you just said and linked is not wrong. You've hit rock bottom on your arguments and are desperate. Just give up.

The enjoyment of the contender is a by-product of the challenge created in a game. Period.

Nope. They were created to pass the time, originally.

"The second problem I have with your premise is that transporting in Eve already isn't "fun"."

What dev-implemented goal in EVE Online can be considered fun? Mission running has a novelty value while a player learns the ropes, but the become quite repetetive. Exploration has a nice mini-game which holds entertainment value for a while but it's a mini-game, a small amount of entertainment offered as part of a larger package. Mining? Heh, yeah, like anyone has fun mining.

Name any spaceborne money-making profession and you've got a boring game, that is until you consider the element of PvP. That's when they become fun. The knowledge that you're progressing and you're succeeding at stopping those trying to get in your way is quite intoxicating.


"So again if "realism" should have no part of an internet spaceship game, then why shouldn't fun enter the equation?"
As above.

It's not like CCP have said "OK, let's bore our players to death while they try to make money". They rely on us entertaining each other while using the tools they've provided us to do so. Like any MMO, they benefit from players remaining online longer than they would normally play a game to give us a great an oportunity to interact with each other as possible. Creating a sufficient amount of content, particularly when operating at an MMO's tick rate (in EVE's case, it crawls along at 1Hz) compared to most games' 60Hz is, from what I've seen from every MMO to date, an impossibility.

The game's entertainment value is derived from us being online to interact with each other.


"Anyway, does it make any sense that the game mechanics should necessitate group play to do some of the most basic and tedious tasks that should all rights be confined to a single player/character?"

I'm not aware of any basic task requiring more than one player. Do you consider flying billions of ISK worth of ship and cargo to be a "basic" task? Flying from system to system is basic (in EVE - hardly a trival real-life activity), but the cargo makes things that much more complicated.


"Because based off your reasoning, needing an escort just to move things around in space is going to make the game pretty boring for more people than it should, and if that's the case, then what is the point of it? This is especially true since the whole point of an escort is to AVOID fights."

Money. It would be nice if flying stuff through space were more interesting an fun, but not at the expense of the core game play. By all means, please suggest ways to make haulage more fun that doesn't excessively impact players' ability to interact with them.

If the problem is that no space-born money making activity can be defined fun, then answer is not to make them less fun.





Well I guess that depends on who you ask what is and is not required. Because according to gankers the basic task of flying things from point a to point be in mostly safe space is required to have at least 2 characters. As to your point about isk, the relative value of a ship is not something that is a balance point remember? If carebears can't argue that a billion dollar ship should be able to defend against 600mil in cats, then conversely you can't make the argument that flying billions of isk of anything is not basic. (Also hauling things in real life is trivial depending on the destination. Goods from LA to Dallas, trivial. Goods from LA to middle of the Yukon, not so trivial). The only problem with your analogy is that in real life cargo scanners don't exist. So unless pirates are going to infiltrate organizations to learn about cargo values and cargo scanners go away then your point is kinda disingenuous.



I agree.