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Make mix missile/turrets setups viable
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Paul Griffin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-02-13 10:14:03 UTC
Nebaile Sharisa wrote:
I've been known to slap a launcher on if i dont have the fitting for something better. Worse comes to worse might help pop a drone. But overall i wouldn't want split weapons.


Yes, because it is not viable. My proposal is to make it viable by introducing more mixed weapon bonuses on ships and mix weapon bonus modules.

I think for this to work really well they need to make it so that some turrets are best for shields, such as lasers, and some best for armor but bad for shields, thus giving you more incentive to mix it up. But that would mean you would have to overhaul all the ammos and damage types and CCP will never do that at this point.
Paul Griffin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-02-13 10:17:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Try a Gnosis, and see how it works.


Haven't tried flying a Gnosis but on paper it looks really nice. Still, it would suffer from weapon bonus modules affecting only one type. Still I will for sure try it out and see how it works out.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2015-02-13 10:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Paul Griffin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Try a Gnosis, and see how it works.


Still, it would suffer from weapon bonus modules affecting only one type.



Could this IDK... be a draw back for the extra versatility?

This is not a bad thing on multi weapon system ships sure you get less bonus per one damage mod but you get extra bonus if you fit more than that since they don't suffer stacking penalties.

Less potential tank for more potential DPS

the main problem with mixed weapons is not damage bonuses but for the most part you can never do full dps since your optimal and tracking are different (missiles work around this)

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Paul Griffin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-02-13 10:45:24 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Paul Griffin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Try a Gnosis, and see how it works.


Still, it would suffer from weapon bonus modules affecting only one type.



Could this IDK... be a draw back for the extra versatility?

This is not a bad thing on multi weapon system ships sure you get less bonus per one damage mod but you get extra bonus if you fit more than that since they don't suffer stacking penalties.

Less potential tank for more potential DPS

the main problem with mixed weapons is not damage bonuses but for the most part you can never do full dps since your optimal and tracking are different (missiles work around this)


So are you saying that mixed missile and turret is viable? Because I almost never see that and I think the reason is that the versatility you mention is not enough to make up for the lower total DPS (what is even the versatility, dmg types?).

Imo a mixed weapon setup should give you a higher overall DPS but due to how damage resists work in this game, where both shield and armor can be fitted to get high resists against all damage types, there really isn't any incentives to have a ship setup with different damage types. And no incentive to use both armor and shield tank.

To change that it would require an overhaul of the whole system which CCP wont do so I guess this game is simply made for only one damage type and one tank type. Pity as it would open up a lot of interesting fits if it was.

For example, let's say that shields always have 0% EM dmg resists, which cannot be enhanced, and same with armor and explosive dmg. That would make it viable to have a weapon setup which does mix EM and Explosive, and no single weapon type which can do both of these damage types and thus give incentives for building both an armor and shield tank.

I dunno, I just feel that Eve combat has become a bit stale. Always shield tank OR armor tank and always one type of weapon and all of the same type. CCP should make changes to mix this up a bit.

The suggestion above with damage resists and multiple weapon bonuses on almost all ships and modules, both tank and weapon, which gives bonuses to both would go a far way of doing that. But then again Eve is too old of a game and probably the player base too accustomed to how it is so that would be extremely unlikely to happen. Pity.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#25 - 2015-02-13 15:09:16 UTC
Trust us. It doesn't work.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#26 - 2015-02-13 22:11:13 UTC
Paul Griffin wrote:
...
I dunno, I just feel that Eve combat has become a bit stale. Always shield tank OR armor tank and always one type of weapon and all of the same type. CCP should make changes to mix this up a bit.


That is just what you think. There is no rule in EVE that prevents you from doing something out of the ordinary. See the lazoer-Myrmidon can be surprising or a blaster Omen.

Prior to 'Trinity' I used to fly heavy missile Feroxes and man, I do miss them Sad.

Why should CCP make changes because you cannot make something new on your own?

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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#27 - 2015-02-22 15:10:16 UTC
The base issue lies with when they tiericided all the ships. At that point they felt that giving the ship a full rack of guns with appropriate bonuses was not good enough. Or in many cases they actually removed and lowered the number of bonused turrets on a ship, without increasing that bonus. So to make up for the inevitable drop in DPS across so many hulls most of the time they would provide a 1, maybe 2, unbonused launcher slots. Just so they could save face and say that they didn't reduce the DPS on the changed ships, when they actually did. (Maybe CCP could run the numbers on the percentage of ships they did this to that are actually attempting to use those single one-off unbonused hardpoints)

I know for nearly all the ships that I had that lost primary turrets and therefore effective DPS, I just fit a random utility high as it is more useful than trying to remember that I can use the stray missile launcher but only once the target gets within a certain range. Its like fitting an artillery ship, and then putting a single autocannon on. Most ships in this situation have a drone bay as well. So in the situation where you would maybe have a occasional need to dispatch of random drones or small frigs, you have drones for that, not a random unbonused launcher slot.

Granted, the launchers do have the defender missile, but since its not exactly useful its not really worth putting on a turret boat with a single non-bonused launcher slot.

However, on the flip side, all those missile boats that inherited a non-bonused turret to make up for a drop in DPS, what exactly are they expecting you to do with that? Put an arty on a cruise boat? Fit a blaster on a torp ship?

So if maintaining the same DPS was such a concern, why not tweak the bonuses to do the same thing?

I would love to see the utilization numbers of people using the non-bonused hardpoints after the tiericide as compared to the number of people using the full rack of bonused hardpoints before. This would tell us if it was a good change or a bad one.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#28 - 2015-02-22 22:40:11 UTC
The split weapon setups that are most viable are those which have no hardpoint bonuses at all. These include the dragoon, arbitrator, blackbird, celestis, prophecy and the armageddon. These are all swiss-army knife ships and are hard to shut down with any one type of ewar.
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