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Nerfs, and the coming of the second shard

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#321 - 2015-02-12 19:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Okay that is pretty dishonest to pretend that "mechanical" safety is all that matters. Ratting in alliance null has a better reward to risk ratio than trying to PvE while wardecced in highsec.


NPC corp. Thanks for proving my point. In high sec you can alleviate that problem with 2 clicks (to drop corp and be put in an npc corp). in null, no amount of clicking changes the ruls of engagement.

The place where 2 clicks can deliver safety (from a war dec) is automatically safer than the space where no amount of clicking can remove the free aggression rule.

On another note. I simply don't understand why you folks would engage in these kinds of mental gymnastics rather than accept empirically provable and observable truth.


Quote:
Bottom line people play this game to shoot other spaceships for the most part and ISK grinding is just a means to that end. If you make it prohibitively difficult for people who don't have 50M SP or are part of a major bloc to make ISK to finance their PvP activities, they will quit.


No one is talking about making anything 'difficult'. I'm pointing out that the 200+ mil isk per hour i make with a Daredevil in high sec is unbalanced, and that there are many such imbalances in high sec. I know, i've made a mint off them, thank you CCP for Thukker and SOE lp stores.

Quote:

People making too much ISK is not the problem. The problem is people who have massive resources and lots of friends and are still afraid to undock for a fight. They'll only undock for a gank. Seems to me all the folk complaining about nerfs to highsec combat just want to provide themselves with more easy targets by forcing people into low and null. But if you do that, they're going to learn or quit. You do not have a right to an endless supply of easy targets and I think you need to come to terms with that.


I'm a pve player I don't give two farts about pvp crap. I'm describing an imbalance that ends up bad for the game. High sec is not the only imbalance, being able to make so much isk with bombers in faction warfare while also using the Faction warfare NPCs as bodyguards (anyone who wants to kill me has to fly through FW npcs to get at me) is also unbalanced. Hell, l5 carrier blitzing is too.

But we're talking about high sec here. Denying the imbalance is simply selfishness on the part of people exploiting them. I'm exploiting them but I ain't lying about it.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#322 - 2015-02-12 19:12:02 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Griefing is a problem. Playing a game purely to cause other people to stop playing it is a big problem.

Think about it. If you let people grief without limits, *everyone* will leave the game untill only griefers are left. How is that a) fun and b) profitable for CCP?

Highsec PvP is not griefing, at least that's what CCP says:

http://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=336

Or take a look at sections 5.3 and 7.2 from the new player FAQ:

http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf

Griefing is against the EULA and is frowned upon by CCP. Players attacking other players in highsec is part of the game design.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#323 - 2015-02-12 19:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Reiisha wrote:
Griefing is a problem. Playing a game purely to cause other people to stop playing it is a big problem.


Why are you worrying about how someone else plays? Of course their are people who get their jollies from doign things to people. Your job is to not let that happen to you, which delivers the double benefit of persevering your enjoyment while making THEM miserable.

The real truth here is that the "anti-griefer" types are really just meta-gamers. They can't beat the 'griefers' in game at their own game, so they head to forums and blogs and try to gerrymander the powers that be into doing the job for them. It's lazy "backdoor" action, and not the good kind people pay for in Amsterdam.

The game gave half of the tools I needed to defeat 'griefer's' when I downloaded it the very 1st time in 2007. I was born with the other half, it's called a brain. Anyone who can be 'griefed' out of a video game they pay for when they same video game gives them so many ways to beat the bastards, well those people deserve to be run out of the game.

The tragic part is that CCP seems to now think that coddling such weak minded people is the way forward for their business, rather than their historical "hey, HTFU" way of doing things. This will fail, because in addition to not helping the weak-minded (who were weak minded before the downloaded any game, not because of 'griefers'), all it does is alienate those of us who didn't need help to tell those 'griefers' to kiss our asses aka engine exhaust ports.

If EVE online joins the ranks of the carebear MMOs EVE will continue (it's not dying), BUT there will only be Dwarf Fortress left for folks like me (who proudly PVE and say screw off if that offends you) and the people we turn into our bitches aka those griefers that so scare you.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#324 - 2015-02-12 19:18:32 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#325 - 2015-02-12 19:30:24 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Bottom line people play this game to shoot other spaceships for the most part and ISK grinding is just a means to that end. If you make it prohibitively difficult for people who don't have 50M SP or are part of a major bloc to make ISK to finance their PvP activities, they will quit.


People tend not to care about what is in the best interest of the game though, they only really care about what is in their best interest. Having new players making isk to fund PVP activity that may bring up a new crop of pilots and maybe the next "big player" doesn't act in the interests of the players already in place.

Nothing is stopping anyone that thinks High Sec is "too much reward for the risk" from blowing up billion dollar incursion ships or maruaders blazing through level 4's. But I guess it's no fun shooting your own alts.

Leveraging assets to disrupt High Sec and calling for changes to make it less attractive by proxy makes the option of packing up and "falling in line" with them more attractive with no actual effort on their own part to produce a lifestyle that actually is more appealing to a perspective capsuleer. It's like winning a Beauty pageant by punching all the contestants in the face and saying "look how pretty I am".

You just really have to think about who benefits from any change made, it is rare someone advocates something that doesn't benefit them directly even if it is better for the collective. "People can more easily organize, exchange ideas, network, and for organized units? Eve is dying."

In my eyes EvE is being saved from the people that make a daily effort to kill by taking some long overdue steps to address power projection in all its forms. High Sec being better able to organize and function is a great thing. Well maybe not if you have a vested interest in keeping it your own personal newbie killing ground/alt haven for your enjoyment or making it so hard to live there you'd be foolish to do so, making it a non-choice.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#326 - 2015-02-12 19:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
The carebears who cry a lot.

LOL
The most tears right now come from the hicsec wannabe pvplers.
"uuh mommy, hisec is getting a themeparc EvE is not dangerous anymore."
This BS will not get true, no matter you guys whine about it. If you want the thing thats making EvE EvE, you have to go nullsec. It has always been that way.

You still insist that hisec is not dangerous enough? Shouldn't bother you, there is always nullsec waiting for you. There are lots of miners too! Why not go for them? It surely much more exciting, cause the local enforcement is not so easy to fool like Concorde.

Still insists on a more "exciting" hisec? But there is not much excitement, the tricks how to fool around with Concorde are known, its boring and easy to do. Miners are not social? But as it is now, every buf for the griefers, would make it easier to solohunt...

All in all its just lame excuses for a sad bunch of people who do insist on easy prey and therefore demand, that it still stays easy to hunt hisec miners and cry a river of tears and spout lots of hate when *their* gameplay has to change. When they have to HTFU.

Hisec content creators? Thats only a litte group sticking to that excuse. They do not create content, they just mas??rbate and do not care for the content of others.

LOL
OP, no EvE will not be a theme park, quite the opposite, there is nullsec. Thats where EvE happens!
But you cry for a good reason: YOUR easy and riskless kills will be nerfed so YOU have to grow up. Not the miners who play a style that CCP sells as valid playstile.
As long as nullsec exists, all your bragging and loadmouthing is ridiculous. YOU are the scrubs of EvE not the miners.
Bear

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#327 - 2015-02-12 19:41:59 UTC
Another quality poast from an NPC.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#328 - 2015-02-12 19:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Even NPC have more quality than codies...
Big smile

*snickers on your eepeenees wagging*

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#329 - 2015-02-12 20:19:03 UTC
La Rynx wrote:

LOL
OP, no EvE will not be a theme park, quite the opposite, there is nullsec. Thats where EvE happens!
But you cry for a good reason: YOUR easy and riskless kills will be nerfed so YOU have to grow up. Not the miners who play a style that CCP sells as valid playstile.
As long as nullsec exists, all your bragging and loadmouthing is ridiculous. YOU are the scrubs of EvE not the miners.
Bear

OP has moved to nullsec and is a member of Black Legion.

Where he lives and what he does in game is irrelevant. The discussion has been around mechanics changes and their effect, not individual players.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#330 - 2015-02-12 20:20:28 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I report, you decide.

F


Crius A River was last year. Why are you still crying?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2015-02-12 20:22:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Okay that is pretty dishonest to pretend that "mechanical" safety is all that matters. Ratting in alliance null has a better reward to risk ratio than trying to PvE while wardecced in highsec.


NPC corp. Thanks for proving my point. In high sec you can alleviate that problem with 2 clicks (to drop corp and be put in an npc corp). in null, no amount of clicking changes the ruls of engagement.

The place where 2 clicks can deliver safety (from a war dec) is automatically safer than the space where no amount of clicking can remove the free aggression rule.

On another note. I simply don't understand why you folks would engage in these kinds of mental gymnastics rather than accept empirically provable and observable truth.


Quote:
Bottom line people play this game to shoot other spaceships for the most part and ISK grinding is just a means to that end. If you make it prohibitively difficult for people who don't have 50M SP or are part of a major bloc to make ISK to finance their PvP activities, they will quit.


No one is talking about making anything 'difficult'. I'm pointing out that the 200+ mil isk per hour i make with a Daredevil in high sec is unbalanced, and that there are many such imbalances in high sec. I know, i've made a mint off them, thank you CCP for Thukker and SOE lp stores.

Quote:

People making too much ISK is not the problem. The problem is people who have massive resources and lots of friends and are still afraid to undock for a fight. They'll only undock for a gank. Seems to me all the folk complaining about nerfs to highsec combat just want to provide themselves with more easy targets by forcing people into low and null. But if you do that, they're going to learn or quit. You do not have a right to an endless supply of easy targets and I think you need to come to terms with that.


I'm a pve player I don't give two farts about pvp crap. I'm describing an imbalance that ends up bad for the game. High sec is not the only imbalance, being able to make so much isk with bombers in faction warfare while also using the Faction warfare NPCs as bodyguards (anyone who wants to kill me has to fly through FW npcs to get at me) is also unbalanced. Hell, l5 carrier blitzing is too.

But we're talking about high sec here. Denying the imbalance is simply selfishness on the part of people exploiting them. I'm exploiting them but I ain't lying about it.


I have doubts about that 200m an hour figure.

And to get even close to that you must be chaining burner missions with multiple alts and a shiny daredevil (which IS easily gankable) and putting some effort into the LP conversion (sell orders instead of instant selling). Anyone who is willing to put that much effort into farming virtual money is going to find a way to do it regardless. So you know what? Who cares. Good for you. Now break out an officer fit t3 and jump into FW. I promise you'll find some content.

If you are bored with that kind of in-game resources there's nothing wrong with the game. There's something wrong with the way you're playing it.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2015-02-12 20:25:24 UTC
And if you get rid of the NPC corp option you'll just turn trade hubs into 0.0. space because certain entities will simply continue to wardec everything on sight like they already do. Maybe you have an alt in a merc corp that would explain the tears.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2015-02-12 20:31:12 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And if you get rid of the NPC corp option you'll just turn trade hubs into 0.0. space because certain entities will simply continue to wardec everything on sight like they already do. Maybe you have an alt in a merc corp that would explain the tears.


Your personal bias against the merc playstyle is noted. Maybe you got stomped by a merc corp, hence your own tears.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#334 - 2015-02-12 20:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


I have doubts about that 200m an hour figure.

And to get even close to that you must be chaining burner missions with multiple alts and a shiny daredevil (which IS easily gankable) and putting some effort into the LP conversion (sell orders instead of instant selling). Anyone who is willing to put that much effort into farming virtual money is going to find a way to do it regardless. So you know what? Who cares. Good for you. Now break out an officer fit t3 and jump into FW. I promise you'll find some content.

If you are bored with that kind of in-game resources there's nothing wrong with the game. There's something wrong with the way you're playing it.


Theres those mental gymnastics again.

!st, if you doubt what I'm saying ask others.

And like I told that other guy, this isn't about me, I'm fine doing what I do. I have 4 accounts for various types of mostly pve gameplay (I've got null sec toons and a toon for just incursions, 2 toons in FW ect).

We're having a discussion about game balance and health of the game. I'm pointing out an imbalance that (in the long run) hurts the game by stiffing content creation. People like me (experienced players who know how to make a system work in unintended ways) should not be able to go to high sec and make the kind of isk we can, we should HAVE to risk something to get something.

But we don't, so as long as we don't, it would be foolish to not exploit the situation. But it is an imbalance, same as faction warfare pve and the abilty to carrier blitz lvl 5s via prepositioned carriers is. FW pve could be fixed with one simple addition (WEB TOWERS) and l5 mission blitzing is the same (end open deadspace l5 missions, make every one of them sub-cap only gated affairs).

High sec is more problematic, because the problem isn't the content, it's CONCORD creating a situation where that content can be done in optimal ship set ups. I don't have a good idea about that, removing CONCORD from deadspace and incursion sites is too drastic, doing nothing maintains a bad status quo.



What funny is that none of you people claiming the imbalance doesn't exist display even the slightest bit of top level PVE knowledge (you yourself demonstrate this by doubting what can be done by blitzing burner missions). That tends to mean that you are arguing out of your arse parts just to be arguing, and thus adding nothing to the conversation.
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
#335 - 2015-02-12 20:48:03 UTC
So many different flavored beverages in here, I don't know where to begin. Ugh
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#336 - 2015-02-12 21:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And to get even close to that you must be chaining burner missions with multiple alts and a shiny daredevil (which IS easily gankable)

Only easily gankable if someone is autopiloting and AFK.

There's not a single Daredevil gank that I could find on zkillboard in the last 6 month period I checked.

e. I found one. 1 gank in the last 6 months by a Tornado costing 80 million ISK and there are a lot of Daredevil losses in that time.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#337 - 2015-02-12 21:11:57 UTC
La Rynx wrote:

You still insist that hisec is not dangerous enough? Shouldn't bother you, there is always nullsec waiting for you. There are lots of miners too! Why not go for them? It surely much more exciting, cause the local enforcement is not so easy to fool like Concorde.


Nullsec isn't 'for' PvP, much the same way Hi Sec isn't 'for' making risk free ISK - if the regions were so purposed, then we would fundamentally be playing a theme park, not a sandbox.

It is a problem that we are coming dangerously close to such a state. Hi Sec is way too safe, especially in comparison to how profitable it is, to make living in other areas even remotely attractive or even viable. You can't blame antagonists for congregating in Hi Sec, as that's where the targets are at.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2015-02-12 21:29:51 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And if you get rid of the NPC corp option you'll just turn trade hubs into 0.0. space because certain entities will simply continue to wardec everything on sight like they already do. Maybe you have an alt in a merc corp that would explain the tears.


Your personal bias against the merc playstyle is noted. Maybe you got stomped by a merc corp, hence your own tears.


Your sense of entitlement to risk free content (killmails) is likewise noted.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#339 - 2015-02-12 21:31:26 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And if you get rid of the NPC corp option you'll just turn trade hubs into 0.0. space because certain entities will simply continue to wardec everything on sight like they already do. Maybe you have an alt in a merc corp that would explain the tears.


Your personal bias against the merc playstyle is noted. Maybe you got stomped by a merc corp, hence your own tears.


Your sense of entitlement to risk free content (killmails) is likewise noted.


It's not risk free since technically you can shoot back and even first while under wardec...
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#340 - 2015-02-12 21:35:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And if you get rid of the NPC corp option you'll just turn trade hubs into 0.0. space because certain entities will simply continue to wardec everything on sight like they already do. Maybe you have an alt in a merc corp that would explain the tears.


Your personal bias against the merc playstyle is noted. Maybe you got stomped by a merc corp, hence your own tears.


Your sense of entitlement to risk free content (killmails) is likewise noted.

There is nothing risk free about the war dec system. Nothing is stopping anyone from joining a defender as an ally. One small corp full of carebears is now suddenly bolstered by an experienced group of pvp'ers. You see, this is what we call content. This is the sandbox at work.

HTFU