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Nerfs, and the coming of the second shard

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#201 - 2015-02-12 01:05:30 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
So many have tried to address this over the years. The lack of response from CCP over the reformation of the NPE pretty much says "the players need to handle this".

The state of rookie chat suggests they just don't care. HTFU, from day one. In the context of attracting new players, it's disgusting.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
And some did. Goons for example. Love them and hate them, they treat noobs well. Brave Newbies another example.

gnsc tell their players to GTFO out of highsec ASAP and only return to torment the people who remain. Some of the nerfs cited appear to be a result of their actions organising large scale highsec griefing campaigns. I keep seeing it mentioned that the removal of awoxing was proposed by a CSM member as a 'pet project', possibly Sion. Forum based communities leapfrog over highsec as players in the first place, and only return in a blob to stirr things, so I have a real issue with that intervention. Never mind CSM members having the leverage to get 'pet projects' implemented which they didn't campaign for at the point of election and would have been shot down in a hilarious ball of flames if they'd even tried. Transparency - but only for slagging other CSMs eh? **** your 'pet projects'.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
What the NPE lacks most, IMO, are two things:
- loss
- PVP

The NPE is a tutorial to explain gameplay mechanics (which fails horriably) then violates the spirit of the game in the direction it implies new players should pursue. I've said previously I think the rookie tutorial should be a deathmatch you have to beat, and I meant it (sort of). They don't have to be mandatory, but it'd be a fun thing to trial. I'd resub alts to try it, loads of people would. But that might be open to abuse, in which case recruit player volunteers and reward them for participating.



Imagine if NPC corps and even the starter corps declared war on each other once in a while.

Starter corps in particular. Once you leave it, you can't go back. If I leave player corp I go to Aliastra. Seriously that's like a department store or something. If players in starter corps were actually starting out the game at war that alone could be a simple enough change. I can imagine that even FW could figure in as each empire has a navy corp. I can't figure on a backstory for why the "school" corps would be at war with each other though. Maybe somebody stole a mascot or something.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#202 - 2015-02-12 01:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Neither tags or sec status affect ganking. Stop thinking about only ganking.

Did you look at the image in OP? Not sure where you got the idea that this thread isn't about highsec pvp...

Did you look at the image in the OP?

What's the title of the image?

and tags are a buff to carebearing, not pvp.

Why do carebears need tags? They don't lose sec status...or am I missing something here... I mean they're kinda a nerf for lowsec carebears because now the guys hunting them have more time on their hands to hunt for them instead of doing that horrible pve stuff.

Oh and the title is 'EvE's Hisec Shard' so yeah, highsec it is, I thought I was on the money there.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-02-12 01:06:14 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
All I read is "I can't shoot people who don't want to be shot/know what to do anymore" tears. Second shard? Give me a break. The economics alone of highsec-lowsec-nullsec-WH interaction are MORE than enough to disprove that, not to mention lots of residients of other parts of space use highsec for various things.

Here's an idea. If you love PVP that much, come out to Low-sec and shoot people who A: Expect it. B: will shoot back.




So much truth.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2015-02-12 01:06:46 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Neither tags or sec status affect ganking. Stop thinking about only ganking.

Did you look at the image in OP? Not sure where you got the idea that this thread isn't about highsec pvp...

'concord response times'
'sec status penalties for gankers'
'insurance for gankers'
'exhumer ehp' (maybe talking about going out in battlebarges...don't think so since he states it's a nerf)
'venture warp stabs' (maybe not happy about trying to catch them in lowsec...)
'baiters reshipping in space'
'war dec costs'
'allies in wars'
'can-flipping'
'mining links in a pos' (ok I'll give you that one)
'afk mission bears'
'awoxing'
'social corps not being wardeccable'


Ok, I'd like you to do a radical thing and think outside of someone else's picture.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#205 - 2015-02-12 01:09:18 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Ok, I'd like you to do a radical thing and think outside of someone else's picture.


Is it pretty, are there roses? I mean I only have this one very clear infographic about highsec to work on right now for this thread but please show me your talents in the thread where we're talking about your topics.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#206 - 2015-02-12 01:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Eli Apol wrote:
Why do carebears need tags? They don't lose sec status...or am I missing something here... I mean they're kinda a nerf for lowsec carebears because now the guys hunting them have more time on their hands to hunt for them instead of doing that horrible pve stuff.

They are a carebear option to allow otherwise outlaw pilots to enter highsec without the risk of pvp or faction police. Explained in the devblog:

Provide an alternative way to get back in to high-sec for 'reformed' outlaw players. We have had players that would rather stop playing altogether than grind their way back up by killing NPCs

They are an easy out (I use them myself, so happily regard that part of my game as the easy option). They aren't a buff to pvp, especially at the cost. Each time I spend ISK on tags, that directly takes away from the purchase of ships and modules for pvp.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2015-02-12 01:13:18 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Ok, I'd like you to do a radical thing and think outside of someone else's picture.


Is it pretty, are there roses? I mean I only have this one very clear infographic about highsec to work on right now for this thread but please show me your talents in the thread where we're talking about your topics.


You're talking to me. Therefore you are talking about my topics.

I'm that good.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#208 - 2015-02-12 01:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Scipio Artelius wrote:
They are a carebear option to allow otherwise outlaw pilots to enter highsec without the risk of pvp or faction police. Explained in the devblog:

Provide an alternative way to get back in to high-sec for 'reformed' outlaw players. We have had players that would rather stop playing altogether than grind their way back up by killing NPCs

They are an easy out (I use them myself, so happily regard that part of my game as the easy option). They aren't a buff to pvp, especially at the cost. Each time I spend ISK on tags, that directly takes away from the purchase of ships and modules for pvp.

That sounds awfully like a way to make things easier for players that pvp...for example by facilitating movement around the map without them having to dirty their hands with basic ratting pve...

...which then devolves into a neverending circle of them most likely doing rather higher end pve than basic ratting to fund their tags for them to absolve their pvp habits so they can get into highsec to do their higher end pve...ad infinitum.


edit: Either way it's a method for lowsec PvPers to move into highsec to take up PvE, not a buff for people already in highsec PvEing

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#209 - 2015-02-12 01:19:55 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Why do carebears need tags? They don't lose sec status...or am I missing something here... I mean they're kinda a nerf for lowsec carebears because now the guys hunting them have more time on their hands to hunt for them instead of doing that horrible pve stuff.

They are a carebear option to allow otherwise outlaw pilots to enter highsec without the risk of pvp or faction police. Explained in the devblog:

Provide an alternative way to get back in to high-sec for 'reformed' outlaw players. We have had players that would rather stop playing altogether than grind their way back up by killing NPCs

They are an easy out (I use them myself, so happily regard that part of my game as the easy option). They aren't a buff to pvp, especially at the cost. Each time I spend ISK on tags, that directly takes away from the purchase of ships and modules for pvp.




Why should CCP have to provide an alternative because you made a choice knowing full well the consequences.

Maybe theme park pvp where there are no consequences is more your thing.
Marsha Mallow
#210 - 2015-02-12 01:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Eli Apol wrote:
Oh and the title is 'EvE's Hisec Shard' so yeah, highsec it is, I thought I was on the money there.

I want your clothes, your boots, and those goggles. Keep the rookie ship.

woops, I just noticed the title of the image. Still want the stuff tho, hand it over.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#211 - 2015-02-12 01:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Syn Shi wrote:
Why should CCP have to provide an alternative because you made a choice knowing full well the consequences.

Maybe theme park pvp where there are no consequences is more your thing.

They shouldn't. Take the tags away. Wouldn't matter.

No consequences are the best consequences (maybe check my killboard. You'll see lots of consequences there).

But there's no need in these discussion to resort to personal insults. Discuss the ideas and I'll consider any argument. But if you want an insult-fest, then the thread will just end up locked (cleaned at best).
Marsha Mallow
#212 - 2015-02-12 01:34:34 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Imagine if NPC corps and even the starter corps declared war on each other once in a while.

Starter corps in particular. Once you leave it, you can't go back. If I leave player corp I go to Aliastra. Seriously that's like a department store or something. If players in starter corps were actually starting out the game at war that alone could be a simple enough change. I can imagine that even FW could figure in as each empire has a navy corp. I can't figure on a backstory for why the "school" corps would be at war with each other though. Maybe somebody stole a mascot or something.

Drop everyone into FW corps when they start and let them opt out. The quit button should be marked "silly pilot" for simplicity Blink
Bear with, I need to go and I'm only partway through rummaging through some of the earlier remarks. o7

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#213 - 2015-02-12 01:35:01 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Oh and the title is 'EvE's Hisec Shard' so yeah, highsec it is, I thought I was on the money there.

I want your clothes, your boots, and those goggles. Keep the rookie ship.

woops, I just noticed the title of the image. Still want the stuff tho, hand it over.

It's all yours for one trit, let me just make the contract now

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#214 - 2015-02-12 01:48:37 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
edit: Either way it's a method for lowsec PvPers to move into highsec to take up PvE, not a buff for people already in highsec PvEing

We seem to agree.

The arguments posted in the thread have been along the lines of, if increasing the size of the sec status hit is a nerf to pvp, then tags should be seen as a buff to pvp.

But tags aren't designed to allow more pvp. They are designed to allow access to highsec with less risk of pvp, hence not a buff to pvp.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2015-02-12 01:49:18 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Nope the ganking nerfs are far far more numerous than the buffs and most of the ganking buffs are unintended effects of adjusting other areas. However almost all of the ganking nerfs have been direct nerfs.

^

We came here to spank and be spanked, not grind mindlessly until we have 200ml SP and eleventy squillion ISK and are ready to compete (by which point, it's meaningless anyway).

The NPE funnels people into mindless ISK pumping. This must be addressed as a priority.

The terrible fearmongering 'advice' from people in NPC corps is far more responsible for aggravating risk aversion and feelings of entitlement to safety features than the actions of 'griefers'. Recognise how dangerous it is to create default channels ingame where people can brainwash new players into being pathetic quivering 'victims'. These new social corps might actually curb a portion of this, I'm undecided. Either way, NPC corps need to go. If that's on the roadmap and this is the only way to get it through, fair enough.


Social corporations as I understand are basically NPC corporations for only select members. We already have those in player made chat channels. If the problem is toxic NPC corporation atmospheres we can treat them as we do local in wormholes and shut off NPC corporation chat with an option for players to join it. It'd work exactly like the safety, it'd default be off so newbies could not be unwillingly exposed to a toxic environment. Its an improvement over social corporations because it does not remove risk from an already unbalanced highsec.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#216 - 2015-02-12 01:54:31 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Nope the ganking nerfs are far far more numerous than the buffs and most of the ganking buffs are unintended effects of adjusting other areas. However almost all of the ganking nerfs have been direct nerfs.

^

We came here to spank and be spanked, not grind mindlessly until we have 200ml SP and eleventy squillion ISK and are ready to compete (by which point, it's meaningless anyway).

The NPE funnels people into mindless ISK pumping. This must be addressed as a priority.

The terrible fearmongering 'advice' from people in NPC corps is far more responsible for aggravating risk aversion and feelings of entitlement to safety features than the actions of 'griefers'. Recognise how dangerous it is to create default channels ingame where people can brainwash new players into being pathetic quivering 'victims'. These new social corps might actually curb a portion of this, I'm undecided. Either way, NPC corps need to go. If that's on the roadmap and this is the only way to get it through, fair enough.


Social corporations as I understand are basically NPC corporations for only select members. We already have those in player made chat channels. If the problem is toxic NPC corporation atmospheres we can treat them as we do local in wormholes and shut off NPC corporation chat with an option for players to join it. It'd work exactly like the safety, it'd default be off so newbies could not be unwillingly exposed to a toxic environment. Its an improvement over social corporations because it does not remove risk from an already unbalanced highsec.

But the problem is clearly that highsec is unbalanced due to -too much- risk.

So it's not an improvement.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2015-02-12 02:25:46 UTC
OH GHOD
THIS THREAD
The people who love hitting people who can't hit back are screeching at the small changes designed to give their prey a little chance rather than none.
AND THE SOUND IS GLORIOUS
THE TEARS ARE DELICIOUS
I'M MINING IN DELVE
COME AND GET MEEEEEEEE
wimps


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#218 - 2015-02-12 02:50:41 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
edit: Either way it's a method for lowsec PvPers to move into highsec to take up PvE, not a buff for people already in highsec PvEing

We seem to agree.

The arguments posted in the thread have been along the lines of, if increasing the size of the sec status hit is a nerf to pvp, then tags should be seen as a buff to pvp.

But tags aren't designed to allow more pvp. They are designed to allow access to highsec with less risk of pvp, hence not a buff to pvp.




Tags are there to let people who made the choice to pooch their status back into hi-sec.

Which is strange...because they want to pvp but for some reason want to go into an area with little pvp.

You would think they would just stay in low and null if it was for pvp.

Who is avoiding pvp again?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2015-02-12 03:03:24 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
edit: Either way it's a method for lowsec PvPers to move into highsec to take up PvE, not a buff for people already in highsec PvEing

We seem to agree.

The arguments posted in the thread have been along the lines of, if increasing the size of the sec status hit is a nerf to pvp, then tags should be seen as a buff to pvp.

But tags aren't designed to allow more pvp. They are designed to allow access to highsec with less risk of pvp, hence not a buff to pvp.




Tags are there to let people who made the choice to pooch their status back into hi-sec.

Which is strange...because they want to pvp but for some reason want to go into an area with little pvp.

You would think they would just stay in low and null if it was for pvp.

Who is avoiding pvp again?


Area wouldn't have low pvp if it quit being nerfed. CCP should just shift all highsec pvers onto SISI and be done with it. Risk free meaningless pay that I'm sure they'll continue to pay for.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Jenshae Chiroptera
#220 - 2015-02-12 03:09:37 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Now I understand what people mean when they are talking about PvP carebears...
Do you mean the ones that roam around and dip their toes in the deep end only when it suits them or the ones that keep swimming around in the deep end all the time?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.