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Gallente Redesign
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-12-21 01:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kale Eledar wrote:

You know, of course, that the Vagabond goes faster and with better range. It has a bonus to speed, and its weapon systems have better optimal and falloff...


I have to comments to the "Blasters are useless until a Deimos can 100% of the time catch and face **** a Vagabond" line of thinking:
- The thing about kiting is that the kiter isn't MWDing straight away from you all the time. Furthermore, their MWD isn't on all the time... and even when its on they're between cycles and can't overheat.
- Kiting is as much about agility as it is about raw speed. You need to have the agility to respond to what the enemy is doing - or the ability to tank them long enough for your response to matter.
- There are tricks to **** with people. Kiting is a very risk averse style of flying and 99% of the time its possible to either get someone in scram range or get out of point range.
- The idea that a ship specially made for kiting should prevail against a ship specially made for brawling shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. The question you should be asking yourself isn't whether or not the Deimos does the Vaga's job better than the Vaga, but whether the Deimos is able to do its job.

-Liang


What, a ship especially made for brawling? You mean weapons invulnerable to nos/neut? Or ships able to get into range? Or how about utility slots to have nasty surprises like nos/neut? Or multiple damage types to make sure the gap between paper dps and real dps don´t get wider after all the time where you didn´t shoot because of your lack of range?

Oh, you meant the Gallente? Which characteristics did you mean when you claimed that Gallente is specially made for close combat? Seriously, i can´t think of a single thing that the Gallente have or that they could do ( and others can´t have or do as well) that would give them an advantage in close combat.

Even back when they were competitive they really weren´t designed for that role. They worked nonetheless because there were modules that were really useful for close combat (web/nanos/damps) and because Gallente didn´t have any rivals for that role, there weren´t better alternatives.

After all the crutches have been kicked away from them with the module nerfs, the fact that their intended role and their design were absolutely incompatible became apparent, this is the reason why they sucked so much, they weren´t really suited for close combat. The niches are the last resort of the blasterships, where the tactical situation is so advantageous that even the Gallente can be used.

Additionally they got a rival for their role: the Minmatar. Their buffs were practically optimizations for close combat, and now ACs are superior to Blasters for that, making the Minmatar superior in close combat as well.

You think hybrids where buffed greatly? Fly an AC-Boat like a Blasterboat, and then you see a real close-combat performance how it should be (well, not exactly like a blasterboat, to be precise. You have more tactical options -i´m not talking about range- so use them). Try it out. You will understand why i´m stating that the Minmatar should be made the new close combat race. Aside from the fact that their weapons have more range they already are. And they are the only ones you can make this style of fighting work outside of a few niches.

And no, that was never intended that the Gallente would only be acceptable within special situations, because 1: the other races would have been restricted as well, 2: the Gallente weren´t pushed back into niches from the beginning, the original balancing allowed them to be as useful in as many situations like everyone else and 3: it would be a remarkably stupid idea to push an entire race into a few niches that can (and usually would) be as well covered with just three or four ships.

Give Gallente another role in combat. Let Minmatar have the brawling. Optimizing Gallente for close combat now would mean making them as Minmatar or a major overhaul of both races.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#82 - 2011-12-21 01:56:43 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

You think hybrids where buffed greatly? Fly an AC-Boat like a Blasterboat, and then you see a real close-combat performance how it should be. Try it out. You will understand why i´m stating that the Minmatar should be made the new close combat race. Aside from the fact that their weapons have more range they already are. And they are the only ones you can make this style of fighting work outside of a few niches.


Heh, I've done it many times. Here's the most recent example:

Last night I spotted a Myrm in Egghelende and Tomin and I went to kill it. We did. Then I was sitting my GCC off at a belt in Egg because Amamake was pretty quiet, and I spied a Thorax at a belt. I figured I had two choices - warp in at zero and have the best opportunity for a tackle or warp in at range as my vagacane might demand. I was greedy for a kill (it was waaaay too ******* quiet) and I warped in at zero. Lo and behold, the Thorax was at zero as well and scrammed+webbed+pointed me straight away.

Its not that big of a deal though, and the first thing I did was prime gunes, point, and put my drones on him. Then I zoomed in on his ship and matched transversals while overheating for my 770 overheated DPS (my skills - 784 max). Tomin arrived shortly thereafter but had the foresight to warp in at a bit of range - and it wasn't terribly long after that he saw a Cane + Drake on scan. I overheated everything but the neuts didn't cap the Thorax out before the Drake and Cane landed and point+scram+webbed me again.

The Cane started lighting me up and both of them launched ECM drones at Tomin. I finished off the Thorax before turning my attention to the Hurricane. His shields went down fast, and his armor faster still.. but I still only got him to half armor before I went down in a blazing ball of fire. They instascooped my wreck and fled the field when Tomin came back in to try to finish the (very) damaged Cane off.

The entire fight took place within 3-5km and my two utility highs did absolutely nothing for me.

Here's my loss mail: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60520

Here's the fit:
[Hurricane, Vagacane]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

Vital Stats (my skills):
- 50k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 770 @ 1.9+20

Here's a similar Brutix fit that I wish I'd been in:

[Brutix, Shield Gank Brutix]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


Vital stats (My skills):
- 55k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 969 @ 2.6+8.1

So here's the skinny:
- The Brutix does 28% more DPS
- The Brutix has 11% more EHP
- The Brutix tracks better, and would have applied DPS to the Thorax better.
- The Brutix actually has better ranges for the fight took place in.
- I have every reason to believe I would have killed both the Thorax and Hurricane with a Brutix instead of the Cane.

Long and short? Minnies lack the things that really matters in a brawl - DPS and Tank.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#83 - 2011-12-21 02:35:56 UTC
Confirming that you warping into a bait at 0 proves traps are OP.Cool
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#84 - 2011-12-21 02:41:29 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Confirming that you warping into a bait at 0 proves traps are OP.Cool


Don't be daft. What I was illustrating is that claims that Minnies are better at brawling are wrong.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-12-21 04:27:29 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

-2 tes, 1 gyro, and 2 nanos. DC isn't worth the slot on a kiting fit, it's got no structure. Don't stack gyros,


You have absolutely no idea what you are doing, do you?
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-12-21 05:15:26 UTC
Mr Hyde113 wrote:
Nice of you to de-rail the debate with an ad-hominem attack.

A) Not my gallente specced character, so yes I have tried the new blasters. I have been flying a brutix around on this char. Also took a break due to school.

B) Been flying since 05 and these problems have been evident for atleast the past 2 years.

C) Seems like you are pretty desperate to maintain the status quo...I wonder what you fly?


Make up your mind, either you've been pvping with your Gallente toon all this time or your were taking a break?

I'm sorry, from your post I thought it was pretty aparent that you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about. I was atributing this to never flying the ships you were discussing, instead I will just toss it up to you being terrible at flying those said ships on this "alt" of yours.

And all you have to do is look at any killboard to see what I fly. It's easy. I can draw you a picture if it would help.

Goose99 wrote:

-Vaga won't get held down, not by a Diemost that's 1km/s slower anyway.
-Vaga will always keep range, it's 1km/s faster than Diemost. When will the Diemost catch up, by going slower?
-Diemost doesn't need to be plated to lose. It's 1km/s slower unplated, with 2 nanos.
-Nano Diemost is 1km/s, or 50%, slower than nano Vaga. No amount of "luck" will save it.


A Deimos pilot who is going 2k vs a Vaga pilot who is going 3k can get out just as quickly from point range to warp away as the Vaga pilot can. Any pilot who knows how to fly nano is capable of this. It's called skill. If you are having problems with this, maybe you should work on that part of it. The Deimos can chose its targets when nano just as well as the Vaga. If you don't think you can perform up to par against the Vaga, don't engage. There are plenty of ships that can do the job, yes, even Gallente ships. Hell, if you're smart, you might even have a wing man or two there to catch the vaga so that you can apply your massive win dps. Hell, you could even do this with an all Gallente fleet.

Rapier + Vaga would lose to a Arazu + Deimos.

Eve isn't a 1v1 game. MMO, you know? If you die too much flying your Gallente ships, most likely it's not the ship that is causing it. You may want to take some pvp classes or start flying with some mates that can keep this from happening. The answer is not forum whining about how underpowered your ship is or how overpowered someone elses ship is. That just makes you look like a whiney forum whore. Instead, get out and pvp. Have fun. Leave the forum whoring for those of us stuck at work.

If you are, however, stuck at work. Maybe read up on some guides on pvping, or check out some other forums on pvp tactics on how to best those ships that are giving you problems. You will see plenty of well skilled pvp pilots who can take out most any ship in what you would call and underpowered ship. Watch some of Kil2's videos where he rapes small gangs in a solo blaster brutix. And this was beffore the blaster buff.

I know that it's easier to cry nerf than to learn to fly better, but in the end, it will be a much better game experience for you and your friends. You can come here and bittervet about all the terrible people whining instead of learning to fly and your friends can have an experienced wingman to fly with. :) It's a win win situation!

Sorry for the rambling. Work makes the mind go numb. :D
Goose99
#87 - 2011-12-21 05:18:53 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

-2 tes, 1 gyro, and 2 nanos. DC isn't worth the slot on a kiting fit, it's got no structure. Don't stack gyros,


You have absolutely no idea what you are doing, do you?


I heard some people, instead of nanoing the vaga, fit a dc for the 700 more hull hp, and stack gyros instead of tes for less dps at point range. Do you plate your vaga too?Cool
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2011-12-21 05:29:20 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
I heard some people, instead of nanoing the vaga, fit a dc for the 700 more hull hp, and stack gyros instead of tes for less dps at point range. Do you plate your vaga too?Cool


Or you could post with your main so we can see all your hulk losses in high sec. :) I find it hard to take anyone serious who won't post with their main. It screams, "I R EFT HOR, LISTIN TOO ME!".

However, that aside, please share with us your optimal Vagabond fit so that we may learn from your infinite wisdom.

Don't forget your required excuse on why you can't post with your main to deflect from any true reasons.
Goose99
#89 - 2011-12-21 05:32:36 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
I heard some people, instead of nanoing the vaga, fit a dc for the 700 more hull hp, and stack gyros instead of tes for less dps at point range. Do you plate your vaga too?Cool


Or you could post with your main so we can see all your hulk losses in high sec. :) I find it hard to take anyone serious who won't post with their main. It screams, "I R EFT HOR, LISTIN TOO ME!".

However, that aside, please share with us your optimal Vagabond fit so that we may learn from your infinite wisdom.

Don't forget your required excuse on why you can't post with your main to deflect from any true reasons.


U MAD BRO?Lol

I, faceless alt, flies Winmatar in those forums.Cool

Google "Winmatar kiting fits," lazy tard.Big smile
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2011-12-21 05:33:56 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

-2 tes, 1 gyro, and 2 nanos. DC isn't worth the slot on a kiting fit, it's got no structure. Don't stack gyros,


You have absolutely no idea what you are doing, do you?


I heard some people, instead of nanoing the vaga, fit a dc for the 700 more hull hp, and stack gyros instead of tes for less dps at point range. Do you plate your vaga too?Cool


There's a 21% EHP difference (including 3000 shield EHP) from that DC II. The sad thing is that there's no reason for it - I might have understood an argument for any of the following:
- 3 Gyro/2 TE
- 2 Gyro/2 TE/DC
- 2 Gyro/2 TE/Nano

.... but 1 Gyro/2 TE/2 Nano is just bad. If you absolutely must have 2 Nanos, go with 2 Gyro/TE/2 Nano.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2011-12-21 05:39:44 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
U MAD BRO?Lol

I, faceless alt, flies Winmatar in those forums.Cool

Google "Winmatar kiting fits," lazy tard.Big smile


Aw, you just need a friend. I see that now. Show us where the mean Minmatar touched you to give you so much hate in your heart towards them. We'll listen. Promise.
Goose99
#92 - 2011-12-21 05:56:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
ElCholo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

-2 tes, 1 gyro, and 2 nanos. DC isn't worth the slot on a kiting fit, it's got no structure. Don't stack gyros,


You have absolutely no idea what you are doing, do you?


I heard some people, instead of nanoing the vaga, fit a dc for the 700 more hull hp, and stack gyros instead of tes for less dps at point range. Do you plate your vaga too?Cool


There's a 21% EHP difference (including 3000 shield EHP) from that DC II. The sad thing is that there's no reason for it - I might have understood an argument for any of the following:
- 3 Gyro/2 TE
- 2 Gyro/2 TE/DC
- 2 Gyro/2 TE/Nano

.... but 1 Gyro/2 TE/2 Nano is just bad. If you absolutely must have 2 Nanos, go with 2 Gyro/TE/2 Nano.

-Liang


I use 2 dmg rigs, so 2nd gyro is like 40 extra dps. Used to even use range rig stacking on top of 2 tes. The 300 m/s of extra gtfo speed comes in handy. It lets you kite other vagas...Lol or at least not be on their km. When you're fast, a little more speed is a lot. Winmatar = speed -> range -> kite -> win.Cool

DC adds what? 12 percent shield resists? How does that add 3k shield ehp? In any case, if you're in a situation where that extra bit of ehp matters, it means you should've gotten out.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-12-21 06:08:58 UTC
If you use 2 damage rigs how do you fit a neut?
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-12-21 06:21:14 UTC
Smabs wrote:
If you use 2 damage rigs how do you fit a neut?


It's doable if you use 1 lse and 1 invuln. It's still a terrible fit though.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2011-12-21 06:24:00 UTC
Yeah true. Although then you have 1m 26s of cap and 21k ehp even with it overheated.

I think the diemos outdamages it at 22km and under so there's no conceivable way that his vaga could win that fight.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-12-21 06:26:20 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Yeah true. Although then you have 1m 26s of cap and 21k ehp even with it overheated.

I think the diemos outdamages it at 22km and under so there's no conceivable way that his vaga could win that fight.


Yah, like I said, terrible fit. It's why I'm finding it hard to take anything he has to say seriously. Well, that and just about everything he's said so far in this and other whine threads has been crap, crap, and more crap.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2011-12-21 07:00:23 UTC
no one is arguing gallente arent great small gang brawlers. rails need to be buffed so that gal ships can be used for everything else What?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#98 - 2011-12-21 07:02:46 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
no one is arguing gallente arent great small gang brawlers. rails need to be buffed so that gal ships can be used for everything else What?


Yes... yes they are.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2011-12-21 07:09:11 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
no one is arguing gallente arent great small gang brawlers. rails need to be buffed so that gal ships can be used for everything else What?


There are a few choice nerfmatards in this thread that are arguing JUST THAT! lol Inconcievable! ;)
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-12-21 07:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Confirming that you warping into a bait at 0 proves traps are OP.Cool


Don't be daft. What I was illustrating is that claims that Minnies are better at brawling are wrong.

-Liang

Well, according to your description and your km you finished the thorax but got defeated by a hurricane (well, and a drake, but mainly the cane).
Your fight is rather proving my point, doesn´t it?

You can easily take 2:1 odds against you when opposing blasterboats in a brawl, 3:1 is getting tricky (but still feasible) now after the buff, where before that point was reached with 4:1 odds.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.