These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

@Rise: Ishtars, what are you going to do with them?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-02-11 17:29:37 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.


Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point.

The easiest fix is:
1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20.
2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100.

Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.


People will bring more ishtar and you are back at square one...
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2015-02-11 18:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Amyclas Amatin
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.


So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with?

Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#23 - 2015-02-11 19:09:21 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
The issue with the Ishtar is really that it has far more bonuses than any other ship.

That is just not true.

Yes it is.
The equivalent would be the deimos having a resist and rep bonus on the gallente ship skill and a tracking and falloff bonus on the HAC skill.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#24 - 2015-02-11 19:21:21 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.


So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with?

Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.


A change is as good as a rest.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-02-11 19:36:18 UTC
If it's taking as long as it is to get a fix its likely because of either plans they have for the future, or another meta that could be even worse then the current with Ishtars, tengus and bombers.

Tengus are an easy answer, they along with other T3 cruisers are getting a rebalance soon so obviously they will be fixed with that. Bombers got a mini fix in terms of not being able to be ISboxed anymore. I can't say for certain what is holding up the Ishtar rebalance but overall I would love to see them lose the sentry bonus for maybe another heavy bonus. Gallente is a brawler race anyways and there would be much less of a problem with Ishtars if their main weapon was heavy drones rather then sentry.

Further this would shift the sentry meta to domis and they actually have draw backs compared to what the Ishtar currently provides.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#26 - 2015-02-11 19:56:25 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.


So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with?

Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.



Others will fill various purposes but if these three get balanced you'll see more doctrine variations come back. Look at the GSF special interest groups for instance. A year or so ago EG and SV were using 6 or 7 different doctrines regularly. HBC had - god forbid - BC doctrines. People were even considering Eagle fleet. Battleships could be seen in doctrines. You can have optimised fleets but there should be no magic bullet. There is after all a reason why everyone uses throw away Ishtar fleets.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2015-02-11 20:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Amyclas Amatin
Swanky nutjob wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.


So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with?

Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.



Others will fill various purposes but if these three get balanced you'll see more doctrine variations come back. Look at the GSF special interest groups for instance. A year or so ago EG and SV were using 6 or 7 different doctrines regularly. HBC had - god forbid - BC doctrines. People were even considering Eagle fleet. Battleships could be seen in doctrines. You can have optimised fleets but there should be no magic bullet. There is after all a reason why everyone uses throw away Ishtar fleets.


And then GSF uses ishtars as a main doctrine, and we finally realize how "unbalanced" they are. Grr goon planners. We don't care how fun a doctrine is, as long as it works, we'll abuse it.

The same goes with any future flavour of the month that will get nerfed the moment we find something effective enough to use en-masse.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#28 - 2015-02-11 20:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Elenahina wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.


Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point.

The easiest fix is:
1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20.
2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100.

Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.



I've been screaming this for a few months already.

Reduce heavy drones down to 20 bandwidth, reduce the drone bay size to 225.
Reduce the max bandwidth of the navy vexor and Ishtar from 125 to 100. They lose 20% of their dps using sentries but maintain all of their dps when using heavies.

This also affects a few other ships. Vexor and prophecy both get a different max dps load out. The proteus, stratios, myrmidon all get to use 5 heavy drones vs the 4 currently.

The navy vex and ishtar take a nerf in solely one aspect of fighting, but maintain their damage potential in other methods of drone fighting (it puts the ship and drones at more risk). You can still drone up the ishtar, but now you are limited by capacity of drones.

That's a adjustment.

Yaay!!!!
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-02-11 20:49:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.


Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point.

The easiest fix is:
1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20.
2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100.

Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.


People will bring more ishtar and you are back at square one...


That's true of whatever ship is the FOTM. It's not limited to the Ishtar.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-02-11 22:07:28 UTC
The problem not with bandwidth the problem with brainwidth

Some people really need to buff their brainwidth.

So we have an issue with Ishtar or Sentry? Can't be both at the same time.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-02-12 00:49:20 UTC
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.



People blobbed in drakes....they got nerfed.
people blobbing in Ishtars...people calling for nerfs.

What ship is next to get nerfed when people use it to blob.


Instead of nerfs go get your own blob......I know...that would require effort on your part.
Helios Panala
#32 - 2015-02-12 01:02:03 UTC
It's not the Ishtar (well it is a little bit) but the blobs.

Fix sov, break null into a hundred different little kingdoms and suddenly huge fleets of Tengus, Ishtars, whatever, the current FOTM, isn't a problem anymore.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2015-02-12 02:49:07 UTC
Helios Panala wrote:
It's not the Ishtar (well it is a little bit) but the blobs.

Fix sov, break null into a hundred different little kingdoms and suddenly huge fleets of Tengus, Ishtars, whatever, the current FOTM, isn't a problem anymore.

I think we have a winner here. In the smaller fleet sizes we face in low the Ishtar is no worse to fight than many of the other fleets we face. This also leads into my response to this post.

Kaelynne Rose wrote:
Remove either bandwidth or sentry drone bonus from hull.


Boom fixed.
Wtf is taking years to figure this out?
Maybe they should hire me like they did rize and fozzy. Id have balances errry 6 weeks like they promised

See above, an Ishtar / sentry drones re balance is a very difficult thing because it affects so many ships and so many uses across the entire EvE universe. Most of the proposed limits to the Ishtar in this and dozens of other threads on this topic would have a huge effect on many of the legitimate PvE uses for the Ishtar. While it is hard for you PvP folks perhaps waiting for the nul re balance to happen is the best path to follow. There is also the possibility that what ever changes will be made to the Ishtar / sentry combination will come as part of the nul re balance. Besides how many years was the Drake the OP ship of choice before CCP decided to balance it?

Yarda Black wrote:
The annoying thing about sentry using droneboats is that their dps is at a different spot than the ship itself. So you either mitigate the dronedamage and let the droneboat slip away, or you find a way to tank the dps long enough to burn through the controlling ship.

This is what makes the Ishtar so OP in peoples minds at the moment. With virtually every other combination it is possible to drive the enemy out of your territory AND pad the kill board numbers at the same time. Now along comes the Ishtar / sentry combination and they are forced to make a choice, they can try for the kill mail which is hard OR they can drive the enemy out of their territory but they will get very few kills on the board. I surmise this to be the truth because in our low sec area we simply do not give a damn about our KB all we want is the enemy out of our area of space and we have no trouble making this happen.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#34 - 2015-02-12 03:29:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.


Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point.

The easiest fix is:
1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20.
2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100.

Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.


People will bring more ishtar and you are back at square one...


Who are these people that aren't apparently bringing ishtars already?

the real escalation here would be moving back to fleets of capitals (or domis).

It's practically a given that we'll never see missile fleets again. It's also a given that drone meta is dominant and will remain so for a very long time. What alternatives are there? Artillery fleets? I have been out of nullsec for some time so I don't know modern fleet compositions that well other than your generic celestis/ishtar spam.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#35 - 2015-02-12 08:18:42 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.



People blobbed in drakes....they got nerfed.
people blobbing in Ishtars...people calling for nerfs.

What ship is next to get nerfed when people use it to blob.


Instead of nerfs go get your own blob......I know...that would require effort on your part.


See this sort of thing isn't helping is if. Drake fleet was no where near as dominant as MWD Ishtar's, Drake fleet was easy to skill into but it was also easy to counter and at that time there were many possible fleet doctrines. This was after all when pretty much all BS apart from the Raven could be made to work in fleets, armour HACs were a thing and bombers took effort to use.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-02-12 08:51:19 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Helios Panala wrote:
It's not the Ishtar (well it is a little bit) but the blobs.

Fix sov, break null into a hundred different little kingdoms and suddenly huge fleets of Tengus, Ishtars, whatever, the current FOTM, isn't a problem anymore.

I think we have a winner here. In the smaller fleet sizes we face in low the Ishtar is no worse to fight than many of the other fleets we face. This also leads into my response to this post.


Unfortunately, anything after about 15 and they start getting disproportionately difficult to try and combat with approximately even numbers, if you're not using them yourself.

Ishtars being massive pains are far from limited to TiDi fights. Sadly.
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-02-12 08:59:28 UTC
I like the Ishtar because it's OP. Bomb my sentries? Lol go for it! Got to get to them first and I'll just drop more when they die. Need to track small, med, large ships at any range? Yea I got that covered in one fit. Ishtar shouldn't be more powerful then a Myrim. It should be a tad weaker but more agile. Sheilds are OP since you can fit more then one ANC repper, only 4 sec cycle time, get the reps on activation. Reps just as much as armor anc, smaller charge doesn't affect rep amount, get 1 more rep over armor anc, doesn't take cap when in use, have implants set that will increase rep amount, Can take drug for even more rep amount, and don't get me started with bastion mode. Yet no one complains about this. Is the Ishtar broken? Yes but so are other things which makes the Ishtar balanced.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#38 - 2015-02-12 12:59:43 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
The issue with the Ishtar is really that it has far more bonuses than any other ship.

That is just not true.

Yes it is.
The equivalent would be the deimos having a resist and rep bonus on the gallente ship skill and a tracking and falloff bonus on the HAC skill.

Strictly speaking, it actually has fewer bonuses than other ships. In T1 hulls (barring Guristas ships because they do drones totally differently), bonuses to drone speed, tracking, and/or optimal range apply to all drones, not just selected ones.

Mind you, I think this is a very good thing. Can you imagine an Ishtar with native hull bonuses to tracking, speed, and range...for light drones? Urk.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Dr Jihad Alhariri
Dr Jihad's Brigade of Interstellar Mujahideen
#39 - 2015-02-12 13:23:54 UTC
Let's also consider the fact that Ishtars are ridiculously easy to fit. They can, in a sense, eat their cake and have it when viewed in the fitting window (or EFT). Just forget about fitting any useless turrets in the high slots, and it is Easy mode.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2015-02-12 13:41:21 UTC
Swanky nutjob wrote:
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?

P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.


Remove all ships execpt the rookie ships to balance the game. Give everybody 1 ISK for every Spinn of the ship.

Use the freaking search funktion of the forum every f***ing day the same s***t. Mimimi the ishtar is too strong there is no counter to it, mimimi nerv this nerv that. Every ship has a weakness. Bombers are used that much because they are the only ship that can apply a AOE damage over a good range and the most fleets are blobs of many players. As a consequenze we would need more weapons which deal damage over a bigger area. Bombers are one of the few posibilitys to wipe out a bigger fleet with a smaller fleet (bombers or smartbomb camp).

Ishtars are strong not too strong, maybe the need a slight (i mean slight) nerv.

Tengus are strong but you can also beat them. There are several tactics. Try something new before begging CCP to make the work you have to do.

-100

and vote 4 close because of the massive reposting 4 this topic
Previous page123Next page