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Nerfs, and the coming of the second shard

First post
Author
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#21 - 2015-02-10 23:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
How are you boosting from inside a POS bubble?

Mining links work from inside a POS shield.

That has no relevance to the graphic or the discussion at hand.

Um.

Read -10.
Marsha Mallow
#22 - 2015-02-10 23:31:03 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
That has no relevance to the graphic or the discussion at hand.

Look again.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-02-10 23:31:27 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
How are you boosting from inside a POS bubble?

Mining links work from inside a POS shield.

That has no relevance to the graphic or the discussion at hand.


ashley Eoner - the forum alt created in such a hurry the owner couldn't be bothered hitting shift A
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#24 - 2015-02-10 23:32:58 UTC
You're a bit late to the party, the second shard is already here, it's called Serenity, feel free to join it if you want to see chinese laws at work (regarding online play)

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology

ashley Eoner
#25 - 2015-02-10 23:37:45 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
How are you boosting from inside a POS bubble?

Mining links work from inside a POS shield.

That has no relevance to the graphic or the discussion at hand.

Um.

Read -10.

Once again as stated earlier that's a +10 as now boosters have to expose themselves to combat and can be easily ganked if you want.

You even stated yourself that you didn't care about the mining links. As it is the Rorqual is so awful that forcing it to be on the field would pretty much kill it's usage.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#26 - 2015-02-10 23:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
You're a bit late to the party, the second shard is already here, it's called Serenity, feel free to join it if you want to see chinese laws at work (regarding online play)

I don't really think Serenity is what Feyd is refering to, because aside from complying with Chinese legal requirements, it's no different to TQ in play (maybe minor differences I'm not across, but it's not substantially different in the risk or the way the game is played).

By second shard, Feyd is referring to a non-pvp playground, unless I'm mistaken.

In some respects, the current way TQ has developed, it's beginning to take on 2-shard properties. In some scenarios of the "nerf, call for more nerfs cycle", TQ could become a highsec risk-free playground with all shooting pvp relegated to lowsec and nullsec only. In effect, becoming two-sharded in playstyle.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#27 - 2015-02-10 23:41:44 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts. As always I let some edge cases stay.

The Rules:
5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.


27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#28 - 2015-02-10 23:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
ashley Eoner wrote:
Once again as stated earlier that's a +10 as now boosters have to expose themselves to combat and can be easily ganked if you want.

You even stated yourself that you didn't care about the mining links. As it is the Rorqual is so awful that forcing it to be on the field would pretty much kill it's usage.

Go back and reread the discussion.

Feyd has included it as a nerf to pvp because pvp links are exposed to risk, while mining links can boost from behind a POS shield.

Mining links can be active with 100% safety while pvp links cannot.

That was the point of including it in the graph and the basis for the subsequent discussion.

The difference between the risk to mining links v risk to pvp links.

The interpretation you've made is different to the intent the discussion initially followed.

Hope that clears it up. Not a major point worth taking the thread off track for.
ashley Eoner
#29 - 2015-02-10 23:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Once again as stated earlier that's a +10 as now boosters have to expose themselves to combat and can be easily ganked if you want.

You even stated yourself that you didn't care about the mining links. As it is the Rorqual is so awful that forcing it to be on the field would pretty much kill it's usage.

Go back and reread the discussion.

Feyd has included it as a nerf to pvp because pvp links are exposed to risk, while mining links can boost from behind a POS shield.

Mining links can be active with 100% safety while pvp links cannot.

That was the point of including it in the graph and the basis for the subsequent discussion.

The interpretation you've made is different to the intent the discussion initially followed.

Hope that clears it up. Not a major point worth taking the thread off track for.

SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP? That's just weird thinking. Where as before the carebear miners could keep their boosters completely hidden the change to expose at least part of their boosting is now considered an awful nerf to pvp/gankers? The only reason mining boosts work in POS is because CCP knows the Rorqual is totally broken and needs some major love. It appears that CCP is having trouble coming up with a solution so for now we have a bandaid.

In highsec by far the majority of miners don't even hide their booster alts in a POS. Why would you when your ship has 380k EHP and the "elite pvpers" are too busy crying about eve becoming Hello kitty to bother with getting a gank group together?

What's really funny to me is that most of those on grid orcas have minimal tank although some do run shield harmonizer links instead of a tractor beam.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#30 - 2015-02-11 00:00:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP?

It's the inequality that is the issue, not the pvp.

Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.

That's the basic argument. It's one I agree with.
ashley Eoner
#31 - 2015-02-11 00:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP?

It's the inequality that is the issue, not the pvp.

Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.

That's the basic argument. It's one I agree with.

It''s an ideological statement that has little relevance once you introduce reality.

Since when has eve been about equality anyway? Should we start partitioning nullsec so everyone has their equally sized space where they can fly their entirely equal ships while engaging in an equal number of activities?
Another Posting Alt
Zerious Fricken Biziness
#32 - 2015-02-11 00:22:55 UTC
There's already a second shard where miners and carebears can potter around in peace.
It's called SISI.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-02-11 00:23:51 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP?

It's the inequality that is the issue, not the pvp.

Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.

That's the basic argument. It's one I agree with.

It''s an ideological statement that has little relevance once you introduce reality.



How is "mining boosts work in blissful safety while combat boosts do not and it should be that both type of links work the same way" an ideological statement?

And both should be nerfed harder and be required to be on grid.
ashley Eoner
#34 - 2015-02-11 00:25:11 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP?

It's the inequality that is the issue, not the pvp.

Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.

That's the basic argument. It's one I agree with.

It''s an ideological statement that has little relevance once you introduce reality.



How is "mining boosts work in blissful safety while combat boosts do not and it should be that both type of links work the same way" an ideological statement?

And both should be nerfed harder and be required to be on grid.

Ideology rarely translates directly into reality.

Like your silly statement about requiring boosters to be on grid. AT that point boosting would cease to exist as they all would be alphaed off the grid in the first shots.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-02-11 00:26:45 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO making it so that those involved with PVP are exposed to PVP is a nerf to PVP?

It's the inequality that is the issue, not the pvp.

Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.

That's the basic argument. It's one I agree with.

It''s an ideological statement that has little relevance once you introduce reality.



How is "mining boosts work in blissful safety while combat boosts do not and it should be that both type of links work the same way" an ideological statement?

And both should be nerfed harder and be required to be on grid.

Ideology rarely translates directly into reality.

Like your silly statement about requiring boosters to be on grid. AT that point boosting would cease to exist as they all would be alphaed off the grid in the first shots.


I'm ok with boosting ceasing to exist.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#36 - 2015-02-11 00:44:21 UTC
as stated earlier there have been a bunch of buffs to ganking too, I think it is in a reasonably good state right now. Also from what I remember there have been a few changes to concord since 07, not quite sure when your timeline starts. also note that drone mechanics change means that drones no longer auto attack gankers.

also I feel that one of the best ways to deal with people in highsec is to suicide gank them. a wardec gives way too much notice, and they will just go play with alts, or stay docked. The main use to a wardec imo is to bash a pos (do pocos require wardecs?). And I'd say harassing null alliances in HS is a good use too. 99% of my time in wardecs is sitting around doing nothing (usually on the aggressor side).

social corps, well I'll wait till more discussion happens, but they sound like fancy names for a group mailing list and chat room, which already happen.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-02-11 01:06:54 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Quote:
Where's the +1 that is tags for sec status?

Highsec gankers don't bother with sec status too much to my knowledge.


Then that would invalidate the -2 point. Works out as a +1 either way.

Scipio Artelius wrote:
Expose all to the same level of risk and allow players to all manage their risk. No need for mechanics to make things safe when players are competent enough to manage the risk themselves.


Except as pointed out, links are kept in NPC corps anyway, so the only impact to PvP AND PvE in hisec is that it makes them more gankable. If you want to count it as a nerf to boosting, fine, but as combat links are used for both PvE and PvP it has no relevance to this particular chart and has nothing to do with highsec carebearism.

And the fact that mining links weren't changed is also not relevant to the chart. You can't count the fact that they HAVEN'T been changed as a -1 compared to the old status quo.
Serene Repose
#38 - 2015-02-11 01:10:37 UTC
Ahar! Is this dumb. Looks like a roadmap to rationality to me. Though, I know "some" people will object.
Then, they always DO. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2015-02-11 01:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
ashley Eoner wrote:
Ganking has never been cheaper thanks to the introduction of t2 BCs and the changes to destroyers.


Wrong. The current ships used are more expensive (battle cruisers and teir 3 battle cruisers especially are a lot more expensive) than the ships used before the insurance nerf. Ganking has never been more expensive.

ashley Eoner wrote:

Like your silly statement about requiring boosters to be on grid. AT that point boosting would cease to exist as they all would be alphaed off the grid in the first shots.


If you lose the flying bricks of steel that are command ships in one volley thenyou deserve to lose them and you have much bigger issues than a lack of boosts.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-02-11 01:11:58 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
as stated earlier there have been a bunch of buffs to ganking too, I think it is in a reasonably good state right now. Also from what I remember there have been a few changes to concord since 07, not quite sure when your timeline starts. also note that drone mechanics change means that drones no longer auto attack gankers.

also I feel that one of the best ways to deal with people in highsec is to suicide gank them. a wardec gives way too much notice, and they will just go play with alts, or stay docked. The main use to a wardec imo is to bash a pos (do pocos require wardecs?). And I'd say harassing null alliances in HS is a good use too. 99% of my time in wardecs is sitting around doing nothing (usually on the aggressor side).

social corps, well I'll wait till more discussion happens, but they sound like fancy names for a group mailing list and chat room, which already happen.


Nope the ganking nerfs are far far more numerous than the buffs and most of the ganking buffs are unintended effects of adjusting other areas. However almost all of the ganking nerfs have been direct nerfs.

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