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Why don't more women play Eve Online?

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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#301 - 2015-02-10 04:31:25 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument.

Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that.


This is getting exhausting, cmon. I never spoke of anything widerspread or any majority. I said clearly that "some" people think so, and that i was surprised at that even. Please dont fall into the trip of disagreeing just for the sake of it as well...

It would have to be widespread to explain why only 5% of women play EVE considering, as I've said more times than I really care to in this thread, women in other online games have it much worse and yet they brush it off and play those games regardless.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#302 - 2015-02-10 04:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
TL;DR The EVE community is unwelcoming as demonstrated in this thread. Hopefully it answers the question.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#303 - 2015-02-10 04:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Malcanis wrote:
Actually it did. It's a topic I was and am concerned about, but I found it hard to come up with any ideas better than 'don't be sexist'.

At least you admit it.

Me? I came up with this earlier: overhaul EVE voice, and ban third party voice chat. Interactions over voice chat become the purview of CCP and subject to the TOS and EULA.

Obviously this is heavy-handed and ultimately unnecessary, but it's still infinitely many times more solutions than you've suggested. Of course, being that you're self-identified with a movement that likes to cry "don't teach women self-defense, just teach men not to ****!" this is hardly surprising.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#304 - 2015-02-10 04:37:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
+1 for the "who gives a damn" group.

I've been to a couple of informal EVE player meet ups in Texas and each time I was the only black person there (don't let the white girl avatar fool you, it was like being a raisin in a bowl of cornflakes!!). Of all the things to be concerned about in this short life, why more 'people like me' don't play EVE or attend meet ups is so far down the list Satan could use that part of the list as toilet paper.

I know a good few female players, some good some bad, none of them are fundamentally different that any other player.



I give a damb because I want more people playing EvE. If there are 10,000 black people who would be playing EvE but aren't for some reason that could sensibly be addressed, then that's 10k people who aren't logging in and providing me content.

Likewise women.


"Sensibly". How do you "Sensibly" enforce rules on third party software? And why should you have to, so a game company can make more money?

If you're black (or white, or red, or yellow or some other flavor of power ranger ) and can't deal with casual racism you shouldn't even have an internet connection. And that goes for every other ism, if I had a dollar for every anti-Texas of anti-American thing I've heard on comms, I'd have enough to buy a whole bunch of plex and never shoot another rat.

Freedom is nasty, but people ARE free. I'd rather a niche game that cherishes that kind of freedom (messy though it is) than a more successful mainstream game that doesn't And you can't have a game that purposefully invites people who want to play villians and expect otherwise. The thing to do is toughen up, give back as good as you are getting and own the poor ignorant bastards. and this applies in real life every bit as much as in a game.


Who said anything about enforcing rules. I'm no great genius but even I could come up with a solution as simple and bad as making rules that are externally enforced given two years; I'm after something better.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#305 - 2015-02-10 04:37:50 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Safe? I'm not here to make friends or be popular, I maintain the strictest sense of centrism that I possibly can in every regard. I have no need to be 'safe', I have no need to make friends, and I certainly have no need for philosophy, and haven't used any either, so please don't pull these kinds of red herrings on me, it's just silliness and I promise you I'll see right through them. I've had scientologist lawyers knocking on my door for some of the things I write, so I promise you your opinion, or anyone else's opinion of me, is of literally zero concern to me. Who are you that it should be any other way?

In case you are confused though, let me clarify my position: I'm not interested in what you assert, I'm interested in what you can demonstrate. The same applies for anyone, and if you can't demonstrate what you claim, then I will dismiss what you claim as irrelevant by default. By being irrelevant, your claim then becomes not worth addressing, let alone offering a counterpoint to.

As for being judgemental, I know what happens when I offer my opinion to people who need to fish for red herrings and attack their critics instead of actually addressing their criticism. Incidentally, this leaves the criticism intact, because it's easier to attack the critic than it is to save a bad argument from good criticism.


why all this sudden defensive aggression man? have i unintentionally touched a nerve?

friends? lawers? opinions of you? whaa?

All I asked was for your opinion on the subject of the thread you are posting on, demonstrating that i do want to listen and i do care.
Also demonstrating that you can be wrong on at least those two estimations of yours, about me.

whats the matter? afraid to be judged by your opinions? if not, then let us have it. If yes, then please dont judge other's opinions like a neutral entity, its conceited and unfair.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#306 - 2015-02-10 04:39:01 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually it did. It's a topic I was and am concerned about, but I found it hard to come up with any ideas better than 'don't be sexist'.

At least you admit it.

Me? I came up with this earlier: overhaul EVE voice, and ban third party voice chat. Interactions over voice chat become the purview of CCP and subject to the TOS and EULA.

Obviously this is heavy-handed and ultimately unnecessary, but it's still infinitely many times more solutions than you've suggested. Of course, being that you're self-identified with a movement that likes to cry "don't teach women self-defense, just teach men not to ****!" this is hardly surprising.


How exactly would you ban third party voice chat, though? That's unfeasible.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#307 - 2015-02-10 04:39:52 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
TL;DR The EVE community is unwelcoming as demonstrated in this thread. Hopefully it answers the question.


Yes, this thread has been an excellent demonstration of the problem.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#308 - 2015-02-10 04:41:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
TL;DR The EVE community is unwelcoming as demonstrated in this thread. Hopefully it answers the question.


Yes, this thread has been an excellent demonstration of the problem.

Roll
Serene Repose
#309 - 2015-02-10 04:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Celestia Via wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
What I don't understand is if women where interested in EvE, they would be playing it, if they aren't, they are obviously not interested, why change a well loved game for people that aren't interested?
On a different note, why is it that women 'have' to be involved in EVERYTHING that men do? Can't men just have something where its NOT pandering to women? Women just come into a community and start demanding things change, how about you adapt? Yes, men are crude, yes we swear, yes we are competative, back-stabbing b@stards to each other and anyone around us in game, don't like it? Go do something else, simple



okay, doing your homework for you. here is one.
just because you assumed i wouldn't.

edit: reading through this thread inorder to call your lie, on such posts not being here, i also read all of your posts...
tbh it just seems to me you want to argue about anything, no real opinion in any of them, only disagreement.
BUS-TED.
EDIT: My grandmother calls that being "contrary."
Mary, Mary, quite contrary...how does your garden grow?
I guess it's easy to understand from whence the bias springs.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#310 - 2015-02-10 04:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Malcanis wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
TL;DR The EVE community is unwelcoming as demonstrated in this thread. Hopefully it answers the question.


Yes, this thread has been an excellent demonstration of the problem.


What this thread has been an excellent demonstration of is that this idea of "unwelcoming" is impervious to reason.

Serene Repose wrote:
BUS-TED
EDIT: My grandmother calls that being "contrary."
Mary, Mary, quite contrary...how does your garden grow?
I guess it's easy to understand from whence the bias springs


The quote you are addressing was already dealt with several times over.

What your edit has to do with anything is anyone's guess.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#311 - 2015-02-10 04:46:38 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

It would have to be widespread to explain why only 5% of women play EVE considering, as I've said more times than I really care to in this thread, women in other online games have it much worse and yet they brush it off and play those games regardless.


okay! finally, proper discussion!

I cannot say how widespread it is, there have been alot of reports in this very thread about women being mispoken to and being forced to hide their gender, one could argue that it is more widespread than it should.

and ofcourse, i agree that its not the only factor, since theres always the example of other games, as you say.
But we can both agree its not helping, right?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2015-02-10 04:48:41 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Safe? I'm not here to make friends or be popular, I maintain the strictest sense of centrism that I possibly can in every regard. I have no need to be 'safe', I have no need to make friends, and I certainly have no need for philosophy, and haven't used any either, so please don't pull these kinds of red herrings on me, it's just silliness and I promise you I'll see right through them. I've had scientologist lawyers knocking on my door for some of the things I write, so I promise you your opinion, or anyone else's opinion of me, is of literally zero concern to me. Who are you that it should be any other way?

In case you are confused though, let me clarify my position: I'm not interested in what you assert, I'm interested in what you can demonstrate. The same applies for anyone, and if you can't demonstrate what you claim, then I will dismiss what you claim as irrelevant by default. By being irrelevant, your claim then becomes not worth addressing, let alone offering a counterpoint to.

As for being judgemental, I know what happens when I offer my opinion to people who need to fish for red herrings and attack their critics instead of actually addressing their criticism. Incidentally, this leaves the criticism intact, because it's easier to attack the critic than it is to save a bad argument from good criticism.


why all this sudden defensive aggression man? have i unintentionally touched a nerve?





Again, let me be clear - you don't get to turn this around by attacking me and pretending I'm doing things I'm not to avoid the point, the point being that opinions are irrelevant until demonstrated otherwise. Hence why you don't get mine, regardless of how many tantrums you throw demanding it, regardless of how many times you accuse me of doing things I haven't done. I still get to criticise bad claims, and no, I don't have to provide my own claim alongside said criticism. All I have to do is ask you, why should I accept your claim as anything other than irrelevant opinion? And let me be clear, if you can't handle criticism, you don't get to dismiss said criticism by applying the term 'judgement' to it as if it's a bad thing. Criticism is how we stop bad ideas from taking fruition and damaging society. Criticism of a bad idea does not require an alternative idea to take its place.

If you'd been paying attention though, you would have noticed I gave my opinion a long time ago. But as per usual, and as I've already stated, you have no interest in my opinion, you're just desperate to divert attention from my criticism of yours.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2015-02-10 04:48:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Actually it did. It's a topic I was and am concerned about, but I found it hard to come up with any ideas better than 'don't be sexist'.


This ought to call into question the need for concern in the first place.

Sort of like in Xenuria's campaign thread; he has articulated several issues that he asserts are problems in need of solving, and yet upon closer examination he has yet to demonstrate that they are problems for any reason other than because he says so.

This problem of "there are not a lot of women" is much like that. There not being a lot of women playing EVE is not inherently problematic.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#314 - 2015-02-10 04:52:47 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:

It would have to be widespread to explain why only 5% of women play EVE considering, as I've said more times than I really care to in this thread, women in other online games have it much worse and yet they brush it off and play those games regardless.


okay! finally, proper discussion!

I cannot say how widespread it is, there have been alot of reports in this very thread about women being mispoken to and being forced to hide their gender, one could argue that it is more widespread than it should.


All of which are unverified anecdotes, where women were allegedly misspoken to and chose to hide their gender. Whether they were forced to or not is not something we can determine.

Quote:
and ofcourse, i agree that its not the only factor, since theres always the example of other games, as you say.
But we can both agree its not helping, right?


Again, you have not demonstrated it exists at all. If you want to be left alone, you should not keep repeating the same untenable position on a forum for public discussion.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#315 - 2015-02-10 04:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument.

Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that.


As a note, if you're brand new to this/a game, have no established friends in it, it's easier to move onto something else than try and stick around when faced with certain types of behaviour.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#316 - 2015-02-10 04:59:14 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Again, let me be clear - you don't get to turn this around by attacking me and pretending I'm doing things I'm not to avoid the point, the point being that opinions are irrelevant until demonstrated otherwise. Hence why you don't get mine, regardless of how many tantrums you throw demanding it, regardless of how many times you accuse me of doing things I haven't done. I still get to criticise bad claims, and no, I don't have to provide my own claim alongside said criticism. All I have to do is ask you, why should I accept your claim as anything other than irrelevant opinion? And let me be clear, if you can't handle criticism, you don't get to dismiss said criticism by applying the term 'judgement' to it as if it's a bad thing. Criticism is how we stop bad ideas from taking fruition and damaging society. Criticism of a bad idea does not require an alternative idea to take its place.

If you'd been paying attention though, you would have noticed I gave my opinion a long time ago. But as per usual, and as I've already stated, you have no interest in my opinion, you're just desperate to divert attention from my criticism of yours.


so, im damaging society eh? and youre here to save it, from my terrible opinions. And, wait, im confused, you straightforward refused to give an opinion, but now claim you already did, but i cant see it anywhere. All this buried among a rant on how i attacked you. I-attacked-you?

i think its time to call out what youre doing for what it really is:

TROLLING

and also call me out for what i really am, a succer to your pointless waste of forum space. I gave my opinion, which is what forums are for. You probably had a fun time bashing it without any real counterproposal, only vague theoretical backtalk.

glad we had this chat, not. See you never.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2015-02-10 05:03:56 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:

As a note, if you're brand new to this/a game, have no established friends in it, it's easier to move onto something else than try and stick around when faced with certain types of behaviour.

You know, you can go to the thread regarding AWOXing and learn rapidly that in general those types of behaviors are not directed at newbies because they have nothing worth the effort of AWOXing them for.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#318 - 2015-02-10 05:06:31 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:

It would have to be widespread to explain why only 5% of women play EVE considering, as I've said more times than I really care to in this thread, women in other online games have it much worse and yet they brush it off and play those games regardless.


okay! finally, proper discussion!

I cannot say how widespread it is, there have been alot of reports in this very thread about women being mispoken to and being forced to hide their gender, one could argue that it is more widespread than it should.


All of which are unverified anecdotes, where women were allegedly misspoken to and chose to hide their gender. Whether they were forced to or not is not something we can determine.

Quote:
and ofcourse, i agree that its not the only factor, since theres always the example of other games, as you say.
But we can both agree its not helping, right?


Again, you have not demonstrated it exists at all. If you want to be left alone, you should not keep repeating the same untenable position on a forum for public discussion.


youre embarassing yourself. inorder to discredit me, just because you still have a bone to pick about your godmongery, you are also disrespecting all women posting their experiences here, calling them liars.

after all, i said it, you won, dont try anymore.

watch me not responding to any more of your crap.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#319 - 2015-02-10 05:08:37 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:

As a note, if you're brand new to this/a game, have no established friends in it, it's easier to move onto something else than try and stick around when faced with certain types of behaviour.

You know, you can go to the thread regarding AWOXing and learn rapidly that in general those types of behaviors are not directed at newbies because they have nothing worth the effort of AWOXing them for.


I'm not talking about people shooting you in a PvP oriented game.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#320 - 2015-02-10 05:12:38 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:

youre embarassing yourself. inorder to discredit me


I have nothing to be embarrassed about

Quote:
just because you still have a bone to pick about your godmongery, you are also disrespecting all women posting their experiences here, calling them liars.


Some of them are women, some of them are men posting about women, or women posting about other women. Some of them are probably accurate, some would probably be inaccurate if we had access to others' versions of events, and some are probably pretty blatant fabrication. In any case, one does not get to use one's personal uncorroborated anecdotes and then claim to be "disrespected" when someone points out the uncorroborated and personal nature of those anecdotes.

Quote:
after all, i said it, you won, dont try anymore.


Don't try what?

Quote:
watch me not responding to any more of your crap.


I suspect the temptation will prove irresistible.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.