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Why don't more women play Eve Online?

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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#281 - 2015-02-10 03:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them that aren't wanted.
It would be like a man going to a women's gym and demanding that they stock heavier dumbbells so that he could weight train.

Celestia Via wrote:
And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.

You've still yet to demonstrate that women are unwanted.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2015-02-10 03:44:29 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them. that aren't wanted.


Which, by the way, can include men as well.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#283 - 2015-02-10 03:46:47 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them. that aren't wanted.


Which, by the way, can include men as well.

It does. Just look at the number of male feminists.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2015-02-10 03:48:43 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them. that aren't wanted.


Which, by the way, can include men as well.

It does. Just look at the number of male feminists.


Never go full McIntosh?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#285 - 2015-02-10 03:50:27 UTC
remiel, i can see no end to this, you seem to enjoy meaningless conversation about how you disagree with everything without voicing one clear opinion, not once in this whole thread.

and kiryen, you still sound bitter about me bashing on your 'i am a christian' post, sorry but thats what you do with posts like these, stomp them before they grow. And dont you dare speak of logic. not after that hispanics in siberia fail of yours.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#286 - 2015-02-10 03:56:40 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them that aren't wanted.
It would be like a man going to a women's gym and demanding that they stock heavier dumbbells so that he could weight train.

Celestia Via wrote:
And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.

You've still yet to demonstrate that women are unwanted.



Since no woman actually came in here, or in eve demanding anything, why is your interpretation more accurate than mine?

"Go do something else" is pretty self explanatory to me. i dont need to demonstrate anything that doesnt demonstrate itself really.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2015-02-10 03:58:34 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
and kiryen, you still sound bitter about me bashing on your 'i am a christian' post, sorry but thats what you do with posts like these, stomp them before they grow. And dont you dare speak of logic. not after that hispanics in siberia fail of yours.


The "Hispanics in Siberia" response to you was what we call "reducio ad absurdum" - in other words, I applied the principle you stated consistently, and demonstrated that, if consistently used, it leads to an absurd result. Your stated position has been shown to be absurd. It is pretty clearly you who is not in a position to talk about logic.

As to being bitter, you continue to demonstrate that you did not understand what I wrote. I did not write an "I am a Christian" post; I mentioned at the end of a post that compared the behavior of certain Christians to Femininsts that I was one in order to show that it was not posted simply to trash Christians.

It is, however, hilarious that YOU think I'M bitter about you "trashing" it after admitting that you simply could not bear to read it just because it had the word "Christian" in it. It seems you are indeed exceedingly sensitive to any criticism of your own ideas.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2015-02-10 03:58:43 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
remiel, i can see no end to this, you seem to enjoy meaningless conversation about how you disagree with everything without voicing one clear opinion, not once in this whole thread.

and kiryen, you still sound bitter about me bashing on your 'i am a christian' post, sorry but thats what you do with posts like these, stomp them before they grow. And dont you dare speak of logic. not after that hispanics in siberia fail of yours.


I don't need to voice an opinion, my opinion is irrelevant, as noted above. I can, and will, criticise yours if it's especially weak, and wrong, especially if it's wrong to the point of being potential misinformation that could do more harm than good. I would rather find, and rest on, arguably demonstrable facts than opinion, which can't be so easily deduced on a video game discussion forum. To be perfectly honest, these are issues best left for sociologists to solve, people with actual qualifications, not 'interest groups' and Tumblrists with an agenda and opinion but no real factual basis to their position, and usually, very little interest in listening to opposing arguments.

Which is another reason you won't get my opinion, because I know you're not interested in and wouldn't listen to it anyway.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2015-02-10 04:00:58 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.

It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them that aren't wanted.
It would be like a man going to a women's gym and demanding that they stock heavier dumbbells so that he could weight train.

Celestia Via wrote:
And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.

You've still yet to demonstrate that women are unwanted.



Since no woman actually came in here, or in eve demanding anything, why is your interpretation more accurate than mine?

"Go do something else" is pretty self explanatory to me. i dont need to demonstrate anything that doesnt demonstrate itself really.


If it's so self-explanatory, you should not have a hard time explaining it.

This is the same argument as 'it's obvious'. Again, if it's so obvious, then it shouldn't be difficult to make it clear to people who it's not so obvious to. You should have easily obtainable evidence. The earth is round is obvious because the evidence is easy to provide.

So start with the context, and explain to us what makes it so self-explanatory.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#290 - 2015-02-10 04:05:49 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Since no woman actually came in here, or in eve demanding anything, why is your interpretation more accurate than mine?

Oh, okay, so I guess nothing needs to change, then.
Glad we had this conversation.

Celestia Via wrote:
"Go do something else" is pretty self explanatory to me. i dont need to demonstrate anything that doesnt demonstrate itself really.

"If you don't like it, don't do it." is not the same as "you're not wanted here."
I don't know how to make this any clearer.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#291 - 2015-02-10 04:15:03 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

The "Hispanics in Siberia" response to you was what we call "reducio ad absurdum" - in other words, I applied the principle you stated consistently, and demonstrated that, if consistently used, it leads to an absurd result. Your stated position has been shown to be absurd. It is pretty clearly you who is not in a position to talk about logic.


Really?
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

and you answer

Quote:
There is also a lack of Hispanic people in remote parts of Siberia; is that due to Siberians actively trying to keep Hispanics out?


no, but that does not prove your point, since our question is not if the lack of something somewhere means anything as to anywhere;s disposition towards it but the opposite. To make it simpler for you, if siberians were trying to keep hispanics out, there would logically be few or no hispanics in siberia

also there are no tigers on my bed, but thats not due to my tiger - repellant pillow actually.

so yes, you failed at logic. dont tryhard to be right. not this time at least.

the method is reductio ad absurdum, learn to use it properly. and spell it properly for that matter.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#292 - 2015-02-10 04:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Celestia Via wrote:
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument.

Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2015-02-10 04:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:


Really?
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.



You've yet to demonstrate how 1. women are not wanted in EVE, and 2. how that would mean they can't play EVE.

Because even if there are a few people who don't want women playing EVE, and I have no doubt that there are, that doesn't explain why women don't play, because there are women who do. Do you understand why this rules out any causation here?

Because if there are women not playing EVE because they're not wanted in EVE, then the problem isn't that they're not wanted, but their problem is with themselves. Who the actual **** chooses not to play a video game just because some random who doesn't know anything about them doesn't want them to? They have their own insecurity issues to work out long before anyone tries to establish a problem with EVE itself.

And yes, the fact that there are women playing EVE automatically precludes women not being wanted as being part of the problem because it demonstrates that women can still play despite the tiny minority of any opinion that they shouldn't.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#294 - 2015-02-10 04:22:39 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

I don't need to voice an opinion, my opinion is irrelevant, as noted above. I can, and will, criticise yours if it's especially weak, and wrong, especially if it's wrong to the point of being potential misinformation that could do more harm than good. I would rather find, and rest on, arguably demonstrable facts than opinion, which can't be so easily deduced on a video game discussion forum. To be perfectly honest, these are issues best left for sociologists to solve, people with actual qualifications, not 'interest groups' and Tumblrists with an agenda and opinion but no real factual basis to their position, and usually, very little interest in listening to opposing arguments.

Which is another reason you won't get my opinion, because I know you're not interested in and wouldn't listen to it anyway.


thats pretty damn judgmental, coming from someone so hellbent on the greater good. how about you stop hiding behind lame excuses that predetermine my interests and hearing, and give us an opinion, which is actually the point of forums, instead on just philosophically disagreeing from your safe position?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#295 - 2015-02-10 04:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Celestia Via wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

The "Hispanics in Siberia" response to you was what we call "reducio ad absurdum" - in other words, I applied the principle you stated consistently, and demonstrated that, if consistently used, it leads to an absurd result. Your stated position has been shown to be absurd. It is pretty clearly you who is not in a position to talk about logic.


Really?
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

and you answer

Quote:
There is also a lack of Hispanic people in remote parts of Siberia; is that due to Siberians actively trying to keep Hispanics out?


no, but that does not prove your point, since our question is not if the lack of something somewhere means anything as to anywhere;s disposition towards it but the opposite. To make it simpler for you, if siberians were trying to keep hispanics out, there would logically be few or no hispanics in siberia


The problem is that you have shown no evidence that anyone is trying to keep women out of EVE except that there are not that many women. This means you are making a circular argument. Yes, if Siberians were trying to keep Hispanics out there would probably be few Hispancis in Siberia - but there are few Hispanics, if any, in siberia and no evidence of any attempt to keep them out. The same applies to women in EVE. Your Germany example is inapplicable because there was ample evidence in that case.

Quote:
also there are no tigers on my bed, but thats not due to my tiger - repellant pillow actually.


You are now arguing against your own position

Quote:

so yes, you failed at logic. dont tryhard to be right. not this time at least.

the method is reductio ad absurdum, learn to use it properly. and spell it properly for that matter.


I did. Your argument was utterly defeated by it - and typographical errors are a red herring. You can keep insisting that you're using logic correctly, but I've demonstrated that you are not. Period. You have absolutely no room whatsoever to even argue that point. You have lost this argument utterly and cannot recover.

Basically, you've been podded.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#296 - 2015-02-10 04:26:01 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve.

But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument.

Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that.


This is getting exhausting, cmon. I never spoke of anything widerspread or any majority. I said clearly that "some" people think so, and that i was surprised at that even. Please dont fall into the trip of disagreeing just for the sake of it as well...

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#297 - 2015-02-10 04:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Celestia Via wrote:


This is getting exhausting, cmon. I never spoke of anything widerspread or any majority. I said clearly that "some" people think so, and that i was surprised at that even. Please dont fall into the trip of disagreeing just for the sake of it as well...


So you admit that the sentiment is not widespread enough to a significant reason for there being few women playing EVE?

Concession accepted.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2015-02-10 04:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

I don't need to voice an opinion, my opinion is irrelevant, as noted above. I can, and will, criticise yours if it's especially weak, and wrong, especially if it's wrong to the point of being potential misinformation that could do more harm than good. I would rather find, and rest on, arguably demonstrable facts than opinion, which can't be so easily deduced on a video game discussion forum. To be perfectly honest, these are issues best left for sociologists to solve, people with actual qualifications, not 'interest groups' and Tumblrists with an agenda and opinion but no real factual basis to their position, and usually, very little interest in listening to opposing arguments.

Which is another reason you won't get my opinion, because I know you're not interested in and wouldn't listen to it anyway.


thats pretty damn judgmental, coming from someone so hellbent on the greater good. how about you stop hiding behind lame excuses that predetermine my interests and hearing, and give us an opinion, which is actually the point of forums, instead on just philosophically disagreeing from your safe position?


Safe? I'm not here to make friends or be popular, I maintain the strictest sense of centrism that I possibly can in every regard. I have no need to be 'safe', I have no need to make friends, and I certainly have no need for philosophy, and haven't used any either, so please don't pull these kinds of red herrings on me, it's just silliness and I promise you I'll see right through them. I've had scientologist lawyers knocking on my door for some of the things I write, so I promise you your opinion, or anyone else's opinion of me, is of literally zero concern to me. Who are you that it should be any other way?

In case you are confused though, let me clarify my position: I'm not interested in what you assert, I'm interested in what you can demonstrate. The same applies for anyone, and if you can't demonstrate what you claim, then I will dismiss what you claim as irrelevant by default. By being irrelevant, your claim then becomes not worth addressing, let alone offering a counterpoint to.

As for being judgemental, I know what happens when I offer my opinion to people who need to fish for red herrings and attack their critics instead of actually addressing their criticism. Incidentally, this leaves the criticism intact, because it's easier to attack the critic than it is to save a bad argument from good criticism.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#299 - 2015-02-10 04:30:22 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:


I did. Your argument was utterly defeated by it - and typographical errors are a red herring. You can keep insisting that you're using logic correctly, but I've demonstrated that you are not. Period. You have absolutely no room whatsoever to even argue that point. You have lost this argument utterly and cannot recover.

Basically, you've been podded.


even the phrasing youre using suggests self - assurance. so let me help. YES YOURE RIGHT!, you are a logic god and i was crushed by your magnificent radiance - there.

now, leave me alone please.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#300 - 2015-02-10 04:30:34 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Actually, I've noticed Goonswarm is generally intolerant of their female players being abused, which is strange when their line members do the opposite to external groups.

Not strange; they are a social group, if you're part of the group you're an equal, if you're not part of the group you're treated like ****, male or female they don't care.

Quote:
It's really upsetting for women involved in serious disputes at a corp level because in reality they have no natural allies - just leghumping supporters.

If you automatically classify all your allies as "leg humpers" then perhaps that explains why you don't have any allies. Nobody has "natural allies", this is the internet and if a stranger helps you, there's generally something they want in return. Not sure why you're calling everyone who helps you derisive terms behind their backs.

Quote:
Get off your arse and stop talking about improving the community and start doing so. There were plenty of times I could have spoken to you ingame about the trials and tribulations of various female players, but you, just like every other cockmonkey ingame will sit there and ramble on about it without doing a thing. Intervene, meaningfully.

"Trials and tribulations," omg, half an hour of blah blah blah. Do any males have this "trials and tribulations" view of the game? Carebears get killed repeatedly till they quit in frustration, never dramatized it as "trials and tribulations."

As far as Malcanis, he's (ex?) CSM, but did his agenda include "improve the game for women" specifically? Because if no, then you may want to get your own meaningful intervention rep who can do all the work for you, so you can then be entitled in cracking the whip like that.



Actually it did. It's a topic I was and am concerned about, but I found it hard to come up with any ideas better than 'don't be sexist'.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016