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Invulnerable RR Blob - problem solution

Author
Tamer
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#1 - 2015-02-09 20:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamer
Hi CCP!

The Main Problem of current EVE sov wars mechanics is invulnerable super/capital blob. I propose simple solution:

LIMIT REMOTE ARMOR/SHIELD PUMPS engaged to one ship

You already nerfed drone assist, it was great advance. Now i recommend limit applied healing pumps activated to one ship.

For example, 16 links per ship pumping:
- ship receives healing from 100 active pumps.
- server sort them by HPS and limits to 16. (or by HP boost, with trimming all pumps ROF to 5 sec)
- as of result, ship receives 16 most efficient links from all assigned to it.

OR

Make remove healing penalties, as of you made for remote sensor boosters, tracking and other links, but with less penalty.

GOALS:
- small fleets boost
- player-factor boost (align, rewarp to inties on mass lock, etc)
- reduce large fights time
- make supers using more accurate
- large blobls nerf
- negation of "broadcast spam" factor

p.s. sorry for bad en, i hope you understand idea
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2015-02-09 20:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
There is already a limit by EHP in many cases the difference between a reasonable balance of limited remote reps and the ceiling due to EHP wouldn't be significantly different to make it worth doing when balanced against the extra complexity it would add to the game.

The use of super capitals - moms/titans - could be tactically limited by the use of a modified version of the "pylon" system but that would impact too much on the use of dreads and carriers in other area of eve to restrict them to operating in that fashion.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-02-09 21:22:49 UTC
While excessive healing is indeed a problematic factor, the first solution proposed is too blunt. Rather than adding arbitrary number of links we could have a limit on % of shield/armor/hull EHP restored per timeframe. This number can be subject to it's own diminishing return and vary between shiptypes, maybe with a special module ot affect it. Imagine modules increased ammount of Shield/Armor restored or EWAR that reduces it.

However it cannot be bnalanced by itself because it will add more problems than solve. Currently RR is one of methods of smaller fleet to defeat larger and less organized enemies. Nerfing it will lower skillcap for fleet battles.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2015-02-09 21:38:27 UTC
So are we also limiting the number of ships that can apply DPS to one target as well?
If not this is a terrible idea. RR should scale with numbers as well as DPS scales with numbers. There is no reason for one to scale perfectly while another doesn't.

Now.... if we want to solve the blob by making DPS also not scale, then I am all for limiting effective RR on a ship at the same time, as that forces individual pilots to pay attention and be very good at organising the spread of Reps across their fleet, and provides a way for attacking forces to make kills since they distracted the logi, who then over focused on one target and lost another as a result. Or jamming out a specific logi to get through reps on a specific target.

But it's provisional on DPS not simply massively scaling. (Which also has the side effect of making local reps more viable in a fleet as well, because alpha damage is just that much lower and makes the Arty alpha actually relevant since you can't just add more ships to get the alpha)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-02-09 22:06:38 UTC
The part where one side fails to kill something because of a tactic, then comes the whine about it on the forums, is priceless.

For those of you who don't know, there was just a big fight involving the OP's alliance, where his alliances supercarrers were hugging a POS, and his enemies Supercarriers were out far away from any POS.

Obviously the rep ability of the Supercarriers and their support Slowcats/Triage was fiendishly overpowered, a problem, and an unfair overpowered tactic, unlike his own sides POS hugging supercarriers with assigned fighters.

Obviously not too overpowered though, since they did successfully kill three supercarriers and a dozen carriers that his enemies brought and voltoned into an "Invulnurable RR Blob"

Now I don't usually get this unsubtle on the F&I forum, but I figured I would make an exception here.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#6 - 2015-02-09 22:11:27 UTC
Void and lockbreaker bombs are a thing bro...

And both of them will PROPPERLY BLEEP over RR strategies... Ask me how i know... hit the anchor and the inclose nature of the blob will do the rest for you...
Tamer
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#7 - 2015-02-09 23:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamer
I playing since 2006 and remember fleets without logistics, it was funny and cool. So i believe EVE dont needs unlimited repair amount. It is wrong evolution brunch.

Limit armor/shield amount as constant per ship is wrong idea too, because repait amount should depend on module quality.
I think, limit repairs to 16 most efficient modules per ship will work excellent.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-02-10 01:08:45 UTC
Thanks for interesting topic o/

it reminds me if you try to fill a glass with water but it's already full so you would simply continue doing this over and over again until you stop, but in regard of game mechanics we don't have any kind of auto switch off mechanism for RR even it's already 100% fill armor and shields.

Should be something wich is stop healing wave to a certain ship if there is no dps aplying to the ship. Or maybe a restriction how many ships could RR a single ship, or how many RR mods could stick to one ship.



"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#9 - 2015-02-10 02:11:52 UTC
How about remote transfer jammers? Reduce transfer amount of the specific transfer type on the targeted ship. Stacking penalized. One individual module for every type. Maybe re-purpose the ewar frigates for those.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#10 - 2015-02-10 04:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lienzo
Anti-super RR bomber fleets are kinda limited by the fairly long range of capital logi modules. Sometimes they do work though.

I would propose a module which significantly reduces the incoming repairs on a target. It would have to have a bit of cooldown, and have a duration that makes it mainly useful during a critical junction in melting down a tank, usually that point in time in which people would overheat guns. It would also need to be on a fairly expensive hull, since it is principally an anti-fleet module.

To this end, I would give this rep-breaker module to Marauders for use on other subcaps. Having it be used by Command Ships is also reasonable with the subcap restriction.

For capital ship targets, I suggest we make a capital ship version only available to Titans, or roll it in with the Doomsday modules. That would make them appropriately doomy. It would make having them highly desirable, but it would also make super blobs slightly wary about using many of them on a single target without staggering them.


Having such an ability would make little to no difference in an n+1 balance consideration. You could have a large subcap fleet and a single Titan and still might manage to take down one super in a supercap fleet. That would add a lot more risk to supers on the battlefield, and a higher proportion of them would die there instead of alone and caught out by metagaming. 'tis nobler.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-02-10 11:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tabyll Altol
Tamer wrote:
Hi CCP!

The Main Problem of current EVE sov wars mechanics is invulnerable super/capital blob. I propose simple solution:

LIMIT REMOTE ARMOR/SHIELD PUMPS engaged to one ship

You already nerfed drone assist, it was great advance. Now i recommend limit applied healing pumps activated to one ship.

For example, 16 links per ship pumping:
- ship receives healing from 100 active pumps.
- server sort them by HPS and limits to 16. (or by HP boost, with trimming all pumps ROF to 5 sec)
- as of result, ship receives 16 most efficient links from all assigned to it.

OR

Make remove healing penalties, as of you made for remote sensor boosters, tracking and other links, but with less penalty.

GOALS:
- small fleets boost
- player-factor boost (align, rewarp to inties on mass lock, etc)
- reduce large fights time
- make supers using more accurate
- large blobls nerf
- negation of "broadcast spam" factor

p.s. sorry for bad en, i hope you understand idea


In the same aspect make give the attackers the same penality first one = 100% second one 80%. Sounds silly is as silly as your idea with the repping.

To nerv large blobs you have to buff Weapons which do their damage over a area not only on a single target like smartbombs and bombs. Introduce a new stronger bomb like the focused void bomb.

We need more AOE Weapons not less.

-1
Sigras
Conglomo
#12 - 2015-02-10 11:18:30 UTC
The answer to RR blobs is more effective AOE damage weapons, not some arbitrary limiting mechanic that makes no sense.

Right now there is no AOE weapon in game that is effective against caps/supercaps. What we really need are bombs that do damage based on how much mass the ship has.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-02-10 11:20:23 UTC
AoE weapons would be abused to hell and back by said blob.

To date no-one I've seen has hit upon a solution that lets people fight well against blobs which would not be employed by said blob to crush all opposition or fundamentally break the game. And that is not a disrespectful point - such a solution is very hard to envisage.
per
Terpene Conglomerate
#14 - 2015-02-10 11:31:25 UTC
bring more falcons, oh i hate ecm
or attract group of drifters they will alpha caps of the field in no time ;o)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-02-10 13:12:55 UTC
afkalt wrote:
AoE weapons would be abused to hell and back by said blob.

To date no-one I've seen has hit upon a solution that lets people fight well against blobs which would not be employed by said blob to crush all opposition or fundamentally break the game. And that is not a disrespectful point - such a solution is very hard to envisage.


Any nerf meant to affect the blob will affect smaller group just as well if not more since the blob can easyly overpower such nerf through sheer number.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-02-10 16:39:47 UTC
Tamer wrote:
Hi CCP!

The Main Problem of current EVE sov wars mechanics is invulnerable super/capital blob. I propose simple solution:

LIMIT REMOTE ARMOR/SHIELD PUMPS engaged to one ship

This thing. It was called.

Remote ECM Burst

Emits an area-of-effect electronic burst, centered on the designated target, which has a chance to momentarily disrupt the target locks of any ship within range, including ships normally immune to all forms of electronic warfare.

Note: Only Supercarriers can fit modules of this type. Only one module of this type can be fit per Supercarrier.


Granted its a SC module, but CCP can always change things. If the OP is whining about to much repping very much like when titans where carrying XL guns and massive numbers of tracking enhancers/tracking computers, then pretty much one shoting BS or smaller ships with even a glancing blow (hence the Titan role bonus of reduced damage) then the OP does have a point. But making static numbers for remote repping....sorry, but have to try harder as someone later pointed out how they destroyed the OP's fleet and that was through careful planning/understanding limitations, jamming a ship and focusing a target would result in that ship or its fleet mate being quickly destroyed as now they don't have the numbers to sustain the repping (16 ships spider tanking, one is jammed, OP focues equal number DPS to break one ship after a remote burst jam, and now its 15 ships against him, which is now reducing reppping...see where this is going?). OP could at any time have tried to attack and hot dropped the alliance before they attacked to reduce their numbers (aka, grinding them down and constant warfare to keep them on their toes, not stagnant bloating your wallet with just a few ships of your own for defense than whining when the other guy wins). I see the situation as you where not prepared, just on watch and they brought down the huge biggest army they could muster to knock down your castle....they planned ahead, you did not.
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#17 - 2015-02-10 16:40:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Solj RichPopolous
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
While excessive healing is indeed a problematic factor, the first solution proposed is too blunt. Rather than adding arbitrary number of links we could have a limit on % of shield/armor/hull EHP restored per timeframe. This number can be subject to it's own diminishing return and vary between shiptypes, maybe with a special module ot affect it. Imagine modules increased ammount of Shield/Armor restored or EWAR that reduces it.

However it cannot be bnalanced by itself because it will add more problems than solve. Currently RR is one of methods of smaller fleet to defeat larger and less organized enemies. Nerfing it will lower skillcap for fleet battles.


Love this idea. A ship having a max set rep amount per cycle. With modules that can increase it or ewar that can decrease it. This would make ships dependent on logi to sustain themselves have to come up with different fits instead of going raw ehp and resists. They would now have to fit different modules to increase receivable rep amount. Awesome idea +1
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-02-10 18:07:15 UTC
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
While excessive healing is indeed a problematic factor, the first solution proposed is too blunt. Rather than adding arbitrary number of links we could have a limit on % of shield/armor/hull EHP restored per timeframe. This number can be subject to it's own diminishing return and vary between shiptypes, maybe with a special module ot affect it. Imagine modules increased ammount of Shield/Armor restored or EWAR that reduces it.

However it cannot be bnalanced by itself because it will add more problems than solve. Currently RR is one of methods of smaller fleet to defeat larger and less organized enemies. Nerfing it will lower skillcap for fleet battles.


Love this idea. A ship having a max set rep amount per cycle. With modules that can increase it or ewar that can decrease it. This would make ships dependent on logi to sustain themselves have to come up with different fits instead of going raw ehp and resists. They would now have to fit different modules to increase receivable rep amount. Awesome idea +1


And when the smaller fleet gets reduced by the still overwhelming number of the blob so they can't dps through the now limited rep amount what do we do? Stack another nerf over it so they can keep killing stuff or do we tell them again they should of got more friends to last longer?