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Why don't more women play Eve Online?

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Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2015-02-10 01:24:12 UTC
You know something you never see? Female players who have male avatars.

I mean, you see dudes rolling female toons all the time (in Eve and elsewhere), but I can maybe count on one hand the number of times I've seen a girl play as a guy.

I felt like now was as good a time as any to point that out.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2015-02-10 01:28:31 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

This is one where you and I are at odds. I don't believe there is a distinction of 'casual' racism. There's no need, or call for, racism in EVE beyond that which applies to the lore itself. If people can't handle what you define as 'casual' racism, perhaps that's because they shouldn't have to. The internet is a medium for communication, not a special place you go where you can't expect people not to have a problem with what you have to say, free speech or not, because free speech is 100% inclusive of criticism of that speech. I suggest if you can't handle your 'casual' racism being criticised, it's you that needs to htfu.

It's one thing to 'be the villain' in context with the game. It's another thing entirely to be an actual **** that no one has any obligation to have anything to do with.


Just because a minority person feels something is racist does not mean that it actually is. Just because a female calls something misogynist, that is not necessarily the case.

All this results in is those terms morphing to mean whatever the speaker needs them to mean to drag the issue onto the character of their opponent and stifle discussion - you know, like what normally happens these days.


But without knowing all the details of the anecdote, having not been there ourselves, you and I will never know, hence diluting the anecdote to the status of irrelevance to begin with, where any anecdote should be.


So are you objecting to what he said because it's an anecdote, or because you feel that 'casual racism' is an invalid concept? It seems you've adjusted what you feel is the issue for no apparent reason.


Both. Let me explain.

Firstly, the main reasons dialectics like this one become so heated is because people let them become conflated with their own personal issues. They aren't generally interested in what's socially healthy, but getting what they want for them. Some people have hurt feelings and want everyone to stop calling 'em names, others wanna be able to keep calling people names. As far as I'm concerned, no one on the internet is who or what they say they are, so I treat everyone equally - a set of pixels with an opinion. Pixels don't have a colour, gender, or any other defining feature that can or should be buoyed against their opinion, which is essentially invalid by default until cited or otherwise supported with evidence.

Secondly, 'casual racism'... I do think sometimes Jen suffers from poor wording or phrasing on the forums, and I think (or hope) what he meant was 'the kind of banter on coms that we have been up to for a long time and as an inside thing harms no one'.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#243 - 2015-02-10 01:28:41 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
You know something you never see? Female players who have male avatars.

I mean, you see dudes rolling female toons all the time (in Eve and elsewhere), but I can maybe count on one hand the number of times I've seen a girl play as a guy.

I felt like now was as good a time as any to point that out.


I actually know a few. I was on comms with one when a guy (not the smartest guy in our alliance, this was back when I wa sin Atlas) asked her why she did that. She replied (an I'm not kidding) "why are you and Jenn sporting white girl toons when you're Mexican and he's black". I laughed and the other guy said nothing lol.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#244 - 2015-02-10 01:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Both. Let me explain.

Firstly, the main reasons dialectics like this one become so heated is because people let them become conflated with their own personal issues. They aren't generally interested in what's socially healthy, but getting what they want for them. Some people have hurt feelings and want everyone to stop calling 'em names, others wanna be able to keep calling people names.


There is a third option. The people who don't get hurt feelings over idiotic talk on the internet AND the people who don't call others names unless someone else starts it.


Quote:

Secondly, 'casual racism'... I do think sometimes Jen suffers from poor wording or phrasing on the forums, and I think (or hope) what he meant was 'the kind of banter on coms that we have been up to for a long time and as an inside thing harms no one'.


I'm saying that so long as the person isn't committing a real life crime like an actionable death threat, what they say means noting whatsoever. The problem with most of the world is that its too sensitive about what other people think and say, whether that is talk of imaginary sandwich making or drawing dead religious prophets..
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#245 - 2015-02-10 01:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
This is an important part of our community worth discussing. However, I have spent the last 20 minutes cleaning this thread. I was tempted to lock it altogether. Please prove this thread still has staying power by following our very simple rules:

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

6. Racism and discrimination are prohibited.

Racism, gender stereotyping, hate speech, and sexism are not permitted on the EVE Online Forums. Derogatory posting that includes race, religion or sexual preference based personal attacks and trolling can result in immediate suspension of forum posting privileges.

7. Discussion of real life religion and politics is prohibited.

Discussion of real life religion and politics is strictly prohibited on the EVE Online forums. Discussions of this nature often creates animosity between forum users due to real life political or military conflicts. CCP promotes the growth of a gaming community where equality is at the forefront. Nationalist, religious or political afiliations are not part of EVE Online, and should not be part of discussion on the EVE Online forums.

I have removed plenty of posts from this thread.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#246 - 2015-02-10 02:18:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Good point. Go make a sandwich for me whilst I consider it, then I'll tell you what to think.

Then kick you from Corp because youre uncomfortable with my inept flirting, you adorable love muffin.

You didn't even have to self identify as a feminist, Malcanis. It's pretty damn obvious. You have such a conviction in the righteousness of your cause that you feel comfortable dismissing any argument that doesn't conform to your ideology.

Try again, and this time, address the question that I asked you.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#247 - 2015-02-10 02:19:38 UTC
Jenn aSide:
I have done this.
You will do this.
One day, you will go back over posts you wrote years before and ask yourself, "What the hell, was I thinking?" Shocked

Now, why not stop spinning circles and let others talk for awhile?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#248 - 2015-02-10 02:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Also, get out Jenn. Being a black man from Texas doesn't entitle you to bury this topic in 20k words of you rambling on about how you dunked a fellow person of colour for protesting about being called a ****** in comms. I forwarded your comments to 3 first generation west indies ladies in their sixties - and they're packing their bags to come to Texas with their zimmers to beat you up, lad.

You know, it's rather telling that every single threat of violence in this thread towards people expressing their opinion has been from you.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
One day, you will go back over posts you wrote years before and ask yourself, "What the hell, was I thinking?" Shocked

I'm doing that right now, actually.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2015-02-10 02:27:08 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jenn aSide:
I have done this.
You will do this.
One day, you will go back over posts you wrote years before and ask yourself, "What the hell, was I thinking?" Shocked

Now, why not stop spinning circles and let others talk for awhile?


You may have noticed that no amount of posting by one person prevents anyone else from posting.

You also may want to consider that just because you have revised former opinions does not mean the new ones are an improvement.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#250 - 2015-02-10 02:32:49 UTC
ISD Decoy wrote:

I have removed plenty of posts from this thread.


what about the guy that tried to derail this into religious onslaught with some scripture drivel a couple of pages back?
not trying to tell you how to run this show, but i think rule 7 is clear on this, just wondering if you somehow missed that.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2015-02-10 02:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Celestia Via wrote:
ISD Decoy wrote:

I have removed plenty of posts from this thread.


what about the guy that tried to derail this into religious onslaught with some scripture drivel a couple of pages back?
not trying to tell you how to run this show, but i think rule 7 is clear on this, just wondering if you somehow missed that.


He probably missed it because no one either mentioned Scripture or tried to turn anything into a discussion of religion. Comparing the behaviors of two groups of people is not a discussion of real life religion just because one of those groups happens to be religious.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#252 - 2015-02-10 02:37:42 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
You may have noticed that no amount of posting by one person prevents anyone else from posting
De-rails / flaming / trolling --> lock.

Yes, it can prevent people posting and it is deliberately taken down that path, often.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2015-02-10 02:40:14 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
You may have noticed that no amount of posting by one person prevents anyone else from posting
De-rails / flaming / trolling --> lock.

Yes, it can prevent people posting and it is deliberately taken down that path, often.


You're talking about every thread ever though, not just this one.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#254 - 2015-02-10 02:40:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
You may have noticed that no amount of posting by one person prevents anyone else from posting
De-rails / flaming / trolling --> lock.

Yes, it can prevent people posting and it is deliberately taken down that path, often.


Which was not the claim made. What was stated was "Now, why not stop spinning circles and let others talk for awhile? " I'm not sure what "spinning circles" is supposed to be, so that quote essentially amounts to "stop saying things I don't like." and has nothing to do with getting the thread locked.

Also, Jenn aSide is not trolling, flaming, nor derailing the topic.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#255 - 2015-02-10 02:48:11 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

He probably missed it because no one either mentioned Scripture or tried to turn anything into a discussion of religion. Comparing the behaviors of two groups of people is not a discussion of real life religion just because one of those groups happens to be religious.



perhaps, after all, after seeing the word 'Christian' more than 3 times i just stopped reading.
Anyway, here we are again discussing irrelevant issues, and forum moderation nonetheless, which if im not mistaken is another way to get a lock?

maybe this is all talked out, time to reflect and see what we learned.

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE, kinda surprised at that tbh, but i have to respect it.
No point in figuring out why women dont want to join if we cant at least all agree we want them to.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2015-02-10 02:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE


Then you learned nothing relevant. Here's why.

One, there are people that want to exclude men from enough things to demonstrate that prejudice is not exclusive to gender.

Two, that there are those who would exclude anyone at all should be self-evident to begin with. It's human nature to group together into cliques of certain groups based on certain tendencies or preconceptions. Nowhere is this more evident than in American culture, where races tend to group together with their own race. It's quite common to see, and is part of the root cause of persistent racism in the US, where it also happens with regards to religiosity.

However, that's not to say that if you've only learned this now, it's redundant, but you need to put things in perspective. When you notice a problem, the first thing you need to do, always the first thing, is make sure you don't conflate it with another problem, and as a result, become part of the problem. Because the problem with the lack of women in EVE has absolutely nothing to do with people not wanting women to play EVE. If women wanted to play EVE, they can and will regardless of who wants them there or not, they have that right and ability.

And then, there's the question of, is the low occurrence of women playing EVE really a problem in the first place?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenshae Chiroptera
#257 - 2015-02-10 02:50:39 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
You may have noticed that no amount of posting by one person prevents anyone else from posting
De-rails / flaming / trolling --> lock.

Yes, it can prevent people posting and it is deliberately taken down that path, often.


Which was not the claim made. What was stated was "Now, why not stop spinning circles and let others talk for awhile? " I'm not sure what "spinning circles" is supposed to be, so that quote essentially amounts to "stop saying things I don't like." and has nothing to do with getting the thread locked.

Also, Jenn aSide is not trolling, flaming, nor derailing the topic.
Spinning circles, talking in circles, what we are starting to do. Wasting people's time reading our drivel that goes in circular conversations where the people expressing their opinions will never agree and continue to do it so many times and in so many posts that anyone else, who has a life, will not read all of it and not even bother posting because it will simply be drowned out.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2015-02-10 02:52:18 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
[perhaps, after all, after seeing the word 'Christian' more than 3 times i just stopped reading.


In that case I am glad I could clear up your misconception. Next time you don't read a post before commenting on it just let me know and I'll be more than happy to assist.

Quote:
Anyway, here we are again discussing irrelevant issues, and forum moderation nonetheless, which if im not mistaken is another way to get a lock?


Then you should not have brought it up.

Quote:
I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE, kinda surprised at that tbh, but i have to respect it.
No point in figuring out why women dont want to join if we cant at least all agree we want them to.


I am curious where anyone said they don't want women in EVE; could you point that out? I know that several people have stated they do not want EVE changed simply to be more attractive to women, but that is clearly not the same thing.

Or perhaps you stopped reading those posts too?

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#259 - 2015-02-10 02:52:43 UTC
I don't want them to any more than I want anyone else to. I don't want them not to, either.
This game is not and was never intended to appeal to the general gaming audience. If that means that less women want to play it than men, so be it. That does not in itself indicate that there's something wrong with the game.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#260 - 2015-02-10 02:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Spinning circles, talking in circles, what we are starting to do. Wasting people's time reading our drivel that goes in circular conversations where the people expressing their opinions will never agree and continue to do it so many times and in so many posts that anyone else, who has a life, will not read all of it and not even bother posting because it will simply be drowned out.


So is it your opinion that we simply should not have discussion forums? I've seen threads far longer than this with far clearer examples of people doing this sort of thing. Look up the ISBoxer thread or a few threads from back when battleships were being rebalanced.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.