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Crime & Punishment

 
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End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#361 - 2015-02-08 21:16:09 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
By punishing attackers mid gank, they are protecting the victims. Not all protection relies on preventing crime from occurring in the first place -
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word protect, which is defined as to keep safe from harm or injury. Concord doesn't do this, injury or harm has already occurred when they arrive.

Quote:
intervening in the act and preventing the successful completion of the crime.
Which is called a rescue. When Police intervene in an armed robbery they are not protecting people, they are rescuing them.


Protection does not require prevention of all harm...you are simply confused.

Protection certainly involved stopping in commission crimes. Time to consult a dictionary.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#362 - 2015-02-08 22:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
By punishing attackers mid gank, they are protecting the victims. Not all protection relies on preventing crime from occurring in the first place -
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word protect, which is defined as to keep safe from harm or injury. Concord doesn't do this, injury or harm has already occurred when they arrive.

Quote:
intervening in the act and preventing the successful completion of the crime.
Which is called a rescue. When Police intervene in an armed robbery they are not protecting people, they are rescuing them.


Protection does not require prevention of all harm...you are simply confused.

Protection certainly involved stopping in commission crimes. Time to consult a dictionary.
On the contrary, it is you who appears to be confused.

protect: verb (used with object)
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, annoyance, insult, etc.; cover or shield from injury or danger.
Concord doesn't do this.

protection : noun
1. the act of protecting or the state of being protected; preservation from injury or harm.
Concord doesn't do this either.

rescue : verb (used with object), rescued, rescuing.
1. to free or deliver from violence, danger, evil, etc.
Concord does do this, generally by killing the bad guys.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#363 - 2015-02-08 22:15:01 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
By punishing attackers mid gank, they are protecting the victims. Not all protection relies on preventing crime from occurring in the first place -
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word protect, which is defined as to keep safe from harm or injury. Concord doesn't do this, injury or harm has already occurred when they arrive.

Quote:
intervening in the act and preventing the successful completion of the crime.
Which is called a rescue. When Police intervene in an armed robbery they are not protecting people, they are rescuing them.


Protection does not require prevention of all harm...you are simply confused.

Protection certainly involved stopping in commission crimes. Time to consult a dictionary.
On the contrary, it is you who appears to be confused.

protect: verb (used with object)
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, annoyance, insult, etc.; cover or shield from injury or danger.
Concord doesn't do this.

protection : noun
1. the act of protecting or the state of being protected; preservation from injury or harm.
Concord doesn't do this either.

rescue : verb (used with object), rescued, rescuing.
1. to free or deliver from violence, danger, evil, etc.
Concord does do this, generally by killing the bad guys.


CONCORD doesn't defend you from an attack? Last I checked it kills the bad guys and saves your life.

In your bizzaroland world police responding to an in progress crime and preventing it from being consummated are not in fact "protecting" the victims, rather they are "rescuing them." Imagine someone breaks into your home to steal your valuables...the police show up and arrest the criminals, preserving your lawful assets. In your alice in wonderland fantasyland the police have now "rescused" something (your home? your valuables? yourself?) as opposed to, you know, protecting the public from criminal activity. I can tell you never went to law school.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#364 - 2015-02-08 22:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
CONCORD doesn't defend you from an attack?
Concord have no interest in defending you from attack, their interest is in killing the people who instigated the attack; so no they do not defend you, they attack the offenders.
Quote:
Last I checked it kills the bad guys and saves your life.
Which is called a rescue Roll
Quote:
In your bizzaroland world police responding to an in progress crime and preventing it from being consummated are not in fact "protecting" the victims, rather they are "rescuing them."
Correct, this is how the world works, if the police were protecting or defending the victims the crime would never have happened in the first place.
Quote:
Imagine someone breaks into your home to steal your valuables...the police show up and arrest the criminals, preserving your lawful assets. In your alice in wonderland fantasyland the police have now "rescued" something (your home? your valuables? yourself?) as opposed to, you know, protecting the public from criminal activity.
If such a thing were to happen and in the unlikely event that the police showed up and arrested someone in the act of robbing me then yes the police have in fact rescued my lawful assets. Protection is my responsibility, I fulfil that by arming the alarm and locking doors and windows.
Quote:
I can tell you never went to law school.
What of it? IIRC you claim to have done so, yet you seem really confused on the role of a law enforcement mechanic that is extremely simple to understand.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#365 - 2015-02-08 23:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


[quote]Imagine someone breaks into your home to steal your valuables...the police show up and arrest the criminals, preserving your lawful assets. In your alice in wonderland fantasyland the police have now "rescued" something (your home? your valuables? yourself?) as opposed to, you know, protecting the public from criminal activity.
If such a thing were to happen and in the unlikely event that the police showed up and arrested someone in the act of robbing me then yes the police have in fact rescued my lawful assets. Protection is my responsibility, I fulfil that by arming the alarm and locking doors and windows.


Your assets, which were never taken, have somehow been "rescued" by the police.

#illiteracy
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#366 - 2015-02-09 07:52:30 UTC
End of AWOX'ing, not really, you can do it as before in lowsec and null, no issues but that entails a bit more risk, while in hisec it just requires a bit of meta gaming effort, stop whining.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#367 - 2015-02-09 09:29:55 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Well. Someone must have gotten bumped off his station once too many times tonight. Or the gate camp has been exceptionally unproductive?


Why arent you against lowsec and nullsec gatecamps? They pick on the weak. Its no different than clubbing a baby seal.


do you class weak as the small frigate scouting for the large hac fleet or the frigate with a fleet of capitals at the end of its cyno? low and null is different, people go there to fight, its a bit different to sitting on an undock waiting for a mining barge or freighter to blap.

Ive been in many fleets and have let plenty of ships through and have also been left alone through gatecamps

answer this why dont mercs go to null/low/wh to fight the pvp corps they wardec if they desire "pvp" so much?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#368 - 2015-02-09 11:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Lan Wang wrote:
answer this why dont mercs go to null/low/wh to fight the pvp corps they wardec if they desire "pvp" so much?
Because hitting their supply chain inflicts as much damage to their war effort and morale as hitting their combat ships.

It's a valid and historical warfare strategy and is still used in meatspace today.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Elyham
Perkone
Caldari State
#369 - 2015-02-09 18:37:49 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.


Unfortunately for many, PVP stands for Player Vs Pyroxeres...
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#370 - 2015-02-09 18:43:28 UTC
oh no youll have to give up the carebear style to go back to normal ganking how sad

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#371 - 2015-02-09 19:23:09 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.


Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Paranoid Loyd
#372 - 2015-02-09 19:53:33 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.


Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord

You are speaking from a FPS point of view. This is not an FPS.

The economy is intertwined with combat. Anything you do in this game including PVE is PVP.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#373 - 2015-02-09 20:21:17 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.


Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord


Industrial ships fight back by avoiding the fight.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2015-02-09 20:54:12 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:

Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord


I remember once accepting a player courier contract from hi sec to null, somewhat for the ISK but mostly for the challenge. My tanked, stabbed blockade runner made it all the way to the destination system, where I landed in a gate camp with bubble. Burning in a transverse direction relative to the campers, I made it out of the bubble and started aligning for the station, almost hitting warp before they got through my hull. I lost the ship and cargo, but it was actually a lot of fun. Is it PvP? That is a matter of opinion, but I think so.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2015-02-09 21:26:42 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


[quote]Imagine someone breaks into your home to steal your valuables...the police show up and arrest the criminals, preserving your lawful assets. In your alice in wonderland fantasyland the police have now "rescued" something (your home? your valuables? yourself?) as opposed to, you know, protecting the public from criminal activity.
If such a thing were to happen and in the unlikely event that the police showed up and arrested someone in the act of robbing me then yes the police have in fact rescued my lawful assets. Protection is my responsibility, I fulfil that by arming the alarm and locking doors and windows.


Your assets, which were never taken, have somehow been "rescued" by the police.

#illiteracy


Not to stir the pot, but here I go.

If nothing was taken there was no theft. The police would be forced to then find a charge covered by an illegal act. In the examples case the most likely charge is breaking and entering. If the family was home perhaps criminal threatening or assault if the actions meet the statutes in question.

Good thing most of the time people aren't arrested for what they haven't yet done. And for our law student the act of plotting is the crime under some circumstances. So by that logic anyone who is in hisec with a weapon would need to be concorded since they might be able to violence someone. Which then goes to show how silly trying to apply real world law methodology is when it is a video game.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#376 - 2015-02-10 03:42:48 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:


Not to stir the pot, but here I go.

If nothing was taken there was no theft. The police would be forced to then find a charge covered by an illegal act. In the examples case the most likely charge is breaking and entering. If the family was home perhaps criminal threatening or assault if the actions meet the statutes in question.

Good thing most of the time people aren't arrested for what they haven't yet done. And for our law student the act of plotting is the crime under some circumstances. So by that logic anyone who is in hisec with a weapon would need to be concorded since they might be able to violence someone. Which then goes to show how silly trying to apply real world law methodology is when it is a video game.


I see...conspiracy and attempt law must now be discarded because everyone could potentially commit a crime, and therefore must be considered a criminal.

Roll
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#377 - 2015-02-10 07:50:30 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord


I remember once accepting a player courier contract from hi sec to null, somewhat for the ISK but mostly for the challenge. My tanked, stabbed blockade runner made it all the way to the destination system, where I landed in a gate camp with bubble. Burning in a transverse direction relative to the campers, I made it out of the bubble and started aligning for the station, almost hitting warp before they got through my hull. I lost the ship and cargo, but it was actually a lot of fun. Is it PvP? That is a matter of opinion, but I think so.
To be fair though, a blockade runner has options. A freighter only really has preemptive options. If chosen as a target and bumped there's really nothing a freighter can do. Waiting to either die or get let go really isn't PvP.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#378 - 2015-02-10 08:54:05 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.


Yeah i understand all that but player vs player, there is no versus involved in ganking its merely player killing, there is no competition between a ganker and a freighter so it cant really be classed as a versus, you can even go to far as to say that the freighter or carebear isnt even interacting with a ganker because there is nothing the freighter can do, accepting a dual is pvp, taking a fight in lowsec or null is pvp, but ganking is not pvp, but i guess gankers are total carebears also because they do pve with concord


Industrial ships fight back by avoiding the fight.


so if i set my route to avoid uedama im in theory pvping gankers? or if we blueball a hostile fleet thats also pvp?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Black Pedro
Mine.
#379 - 2015-02-10 09:10:57 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
so if i set my route to avoid uedama im in theory pvping gankers? or if we blueball a hostile fleet thats also pvp?

As soon as you undock and take an action, like avoiding Uedama, you are PvPing with the gankers.

As soon as you dock successfully with at your destination with your cargo intact, you have beaten the gankers.

I guess, in theory, the gankers actually have to exist, or otherwise you are just taking needless precautions, but yes, in theory you are PvPing with gankers if you put yourself at risk to them to accomplish your own goal.

This is a competitive, single-universe, sandbox game. Almost everything you do is PvP is some capacity.

I am not sure why people have difficulty with this concept although I guess in many cases, you cannot put a face to the other player that you just grabbed an exploration site before, or undercut on the market so people have trouble. But for ganking, it is direct ship-to-ship combat between players so it glaringly obvious it is PvP. It is a classic PvP scenario where one player want to get safely from A to B while the others want to stop them and take their stuff. Doesn't get much more obviously PvP than that.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#380 - 2015-02-10 09:26:29 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
so if i set my route to avoid uedama im in theory pvping gankers? or if we blueball a hostile fleet thats also pvp?

As soon as you undock and take an action, like avoiding Uedama, you are PvPing with the gankers.

As soon as you dock successfully with at your destination with your cargo intact, you have beaten the gankers.

I guess, in theory, the gankers actually have to exist, or otherwise you are just taking needless precautions, but yes, in theory you are PvPing with gankers if you put yourself at risk to them to accomplish your own goal.

This is a competitive, single-universe, sandbox game. Almost everything you do is PvP is some capacity.

I am not sure why people have difficulty with this concept although I guess in many cases, you cannot put a face to the other player that you just grabbed an exploration site before, or undercut on the market so people have trouble. But for ganking, it is direct ship-to-ship combat between players so it glaringly obvious it is PvP. It is a classic PvP scenario where one player want to get safely from A to B while the others want to stop them and take their stuff. Doesn't get much more obviously PvP than that.


well all the examples you have just said above are an issue because you have described pvp as being competition between 2 players within the same activity (which is pvp obviously), ganking is not direct ship to ship combat because the freighter is not involved nor can participate in combat, its 1 sided combat ie player killing/ganking. what you are saying is ship spinning is also pvp because your avoiding people by spinning a ship and not undocking

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*