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Why don't more women play Eve Online?

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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#121 - 2015-02-09 17:54:08 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Eve (in most cases) is the only MMO left where I get heckled instantly for describing myself as a feminist.

Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is.


If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity, many of which often even work against eachother. The fact that you're willing to dismiss the entire thing offhand suggests you have a lot of personal bias and resentment.

Also, you basically just agreed with me for your whole post, just with an attitude of more or less "yeah, but so what?", except for the first part.
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2015-02-09 17:54:50 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:

why does more women in game automatically make it better?

and dude, i'm married, i dont get laid Roll


hehehe aight, i tottaly understand the need to escape our wives and be part of a men-only activity, but cmon,
you cant claim women dont make our lives better in general.. if that was true, why are you married in the first place?


Honestly? To make sure that my kids are raised right, and that I love my wife.

But no, I disagree, the percentage of male to female scientists etc that develop the things to make modern live better is extremely slanted to the male end.
Women nuture, men inovate.
Serene Repose
#123 - 2015-02-09 17:57:16 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:

why does more women in game automatically make it better?

and dude, i'm married, i dont get laid Roll


hehehe aight, i tottaly understand the need to escape our wives and be part of a men-only activity, but cmon,
you cant claim women dont make our lives better in general.. if that was true, why are you married in the first place?


Honestly? To make sure that my kids are raised right, and that I love my wife.

But no, I disagree, the percentage of male to female scientists etc that develop the things to make modern live better is extremely slanted to the male end.
Women nuture, men inovate.
I guess that's why my daughter is an MD. To nuRture?
I'm curious then. Why the female avatar if you're such a GUY?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2015-02-09 17:57:24 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


Look at the post I wrote. You're defending the way you act - Or rather, the way that a lot of the Eve community acts - on the basis that that's how Eve has "always been", rather then even trying to justify the behaviour itself directly. You're getting defensive because people are coming in to a place where you're used to saying rude and crappy stuff to people and pointing out that it's pretty rude and crappy by most normal standards.

It's that attitude there that makes the game so completely unattractive to women. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, but it is what it is.


EvE is EvE, it shouldn't change because there is no other game like it.
I shouldn't have to defend it, if you can't handle things being said to you, because it offends your sensibilities, then your free to go to another game.
We aren't here to be empathetic, we're here to play EvE, if you want empathy, go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.


Isn't that a little circular? EVE is EVE. It's not the first tiem this happens, there is always someone using some flavor of this rallying cry, but they fail to define what EVE is "supposed to be". The best they can do is frame what their experience is from their limited frame of reference.

When a game is so many things to so many different people how can it BE anything?
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#125 - 2015-02-09 17:58:19 UTC
To all people advocating against change:

I like EvE as it is too, but really? are you so afraid that if it changed to include women it would have to be full of pink unicorns, love and understanding?? Or maybe you like it so much as is it that you dont want a single byte of code changed?

Change does not mean that it wont be competitive anymore, that chicks will come and put "hello kitty" stickers on your Rifters and all that. It can keep its male competitive side AND have new aspects that would appeal to women, does that sound so scary?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#126 - 2015-02-09 17:58:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly.


It is for the new person to adjust to the existing environment, not the other way around. The expectation that people will adjust to YOU just because you exist isn't a female thing, lots of males do that too (as evidenced by these very forums lol). It's wrong no matter who is doing it.

In other words, it's not our job to be welcoming, its the new member's job to make a place for themselves here. whether they are male or female is irrelevant.


See, this is what I'm talking about. You're acting like I'm throwing a stick at your beehive just for pointing this stuff out, when all I'm saying is explaining why people are put off.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#127 - 2015-02-09 17:59:21 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity,


I know you didn't mean to, but you just won the EVE forums with this sentence. Twisted
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#128 - 2015-02-09 18:00:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity,


I know you didn't mean to, but you just won the EVE forums with this sentence. Twisted


That's exactly what I meant to say. Some parts of feminism are toxic, others aren't.

The world doesn't run in black and white.
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2015-02-09 18:02:41 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
To all people advocating against change:

I like EvE as it is too, but really? are you so afraid that if it changed to include women it would have to be full of pink unicorns, love and understanding?? Or maybe you like it so much as is it that you dont want a single byte of code changed?

Change does not mean that it wont be competitive anymore, that chicks will come and put "hello kitty" stickers on your Rifters and all that. It can keep its male competitive side AND have new aspects that would appeal to women, does that sound so scary?


But there may be hello kitty edition rifters down the line right?
Vyl Vit
#130 - 2015-02-09 18:03:26 UTC
Lupe Meza wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


Look at the post I wrote. You're defending the way you act - Or rather, the way that a lot of the Eve community acts - on the basis that that's how Eve has "always been", rather then even trying to justify the behaviour itself directly. You're getting defensive because people are coming in to a place where you're used to saying rude and crappy stuff to people and pointing out that it's pretty rude and crappy by most normal standards.

It's that attitude there that makes the game so completely unattractive to women. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, but it is what it is.


EvE is EvE, it shouldn't change because there is no other game like it.
I shouldn't have to defend it, if you can't handle things being said to you, because it offends your sensibilities, then your free to go to another game.
We aren't here to be empathetic, we're here to play EvE, if you want empathy, go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.


Isn't that a little circular? EVE is EVE. It's not the first tiem this happens, there is always someone using some flavor of this rallying cry, but they fail to define what EVE is "supposed to be". The best they can do is frame what their experience is from their limited frame of reference.

When a game is so many things to so many different people how can it BE anything?
Don't miss the subtlety here. You can't say someone else's EVE isn't EVE without saying yourself what EVE is, which is your EVE. That leaves it at who's opinion is more important, yours, or theirs. YOU of course will say yours is, and that's why you say "this is how it's always been." However, having been here "that long" myself, I'll tell you unequivocally, no it is NOT how EVE has always been. It is however how EVE has BECOME....ever since WoW introduced this panda thing we've had this increase in a certain mentality here...I'll bet there's a corresponding decrease over at WoW.

This is how people you think are cool TOLD you how EVE is. It's just that level of honesty in our discussions that give them the flavor they have....these days. Have you read my sig....yet?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#131 - 2015-02-09 18:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly.


It is for the new person to adjust to the existing environment, not the other way around. The expectation that people will adjust to YOU just because you exist isn't a female thing, lots of males do that too (as evidenced by these very forums lol). It's wrong no matter who is doing it.

In other words, it's not our job to be welcoming, its the new member's job to make a place for themselves here. whether they are male or female is irrelevant.


See, this is what I'm talking about. You're acting like I'm throwing a stick at your beehive just for pointing this stuff out, when all I'm saying is explaining why people are put off.


No, I understand you are saying why. I'm saying you're right, this is why some people (not just women) suck too much to play EVE lol.

This is why I say it's good that EVE is the way it is (a rather exclusive niche game), rather than being the kind of mass appeal game that caters to the masses (male and female) who think the world revolves around them and that things should change simply because they join up. EVE is a game of people who join up and say "it is what it is, let me see what I can do with this" and for whatever reason, this way of being appeals more to men than it does to women.
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#132 - 2015-02-09 18:04:35 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
I have many examples of large male groups declining into pointless violence and general mayhem. Just look at football fans (at least in countries where 99% of the fans are male) and then tell me I'm wrong.

Or, provide examples of male groups that have achieved enlightment. One solid example will do.

The majority of scientific research groups are all-male sausage fests and they manage to do research just fine without having to wrestle or measure dicks to figure out whose results are the best.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#133 - 2015-02-09 18:05:31 UTC
Quote:
are you so afraid that if it changed to include women

And how would such a change look like?

Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<
Vyl Vit
#134 - 2015-02-09 18:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is why I say it's good that EVE is the way it is (a rather exclusive niche game), rather than being the kind of mass appeal game that caters to the masses (male and female) who think the world revolves around them and that things should change simply because they join up. EVE is a game of people who join up and say "it is what it is, let me see what I can do with this" and for whatever reason, this way of being appeals more to men than it does to women.
So, women don't play EVE 'cause they suck at EVE, and all things like it...

Damjan Fox wrote:
Quote:
are you so afraid that if it changed to include women

And how would such a change look like?

You can say "what would it look like" or "how would it appear" but you can't say "how...would it look like" as that isn't English. It's something, but it isn't English. Let me venture a guess here. Could it be if more women played EVE would look like people here can speak their own language...at last? Or, isn't that manly to point out? Hmmmm?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#135 - 2015-02-09 18:07:45 UTC
Lupe Meza wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
Quote:
I don't know how I feel about this statement.


Please try to understand that this statement is not directed towards any individual but towards the social result you get when you group too many males to females in one place.

As single people, most men can be great people, but put them all together in the same place and what do you get? EvE online. :P

unless the male group is under strict honor or discipline code, the army for example, I dont believe you can argue that male-only groups are socially dysfunctional.


That be an interesting social experiment actually, put a group together dominated by women with a male minority and see if it turns out egalitarian and fair particularly in respects to that male minority. I wonder if it has already been done actually.

Is abuse of "faux" authority and power of the majority a truly gender issue or a human one. I don't know one way or the other, I'd genuinely be curious what the outcome would be.
Seen it. Though it had structure so not perfectly natural.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#136 - 2015-02-09 18:07:49 UTC
I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#137 - 2015-02-09 18:08:08 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
To all people advocating against change:

I like EvE as it is too, but really? are you so afraid that if it changed to include women it would have to be full of pink unicorns, love and understanding?? Or maybe you like it so much as is it that you dont want a single byte of code changed?

Change does not mean that it wont be competitive anymore, that chicks will come and put "hello kitty" stickers on your Rifters and all that. It can keep its male competitive side AND have new aspects that would appeal to women, does that sound so scary?


Yes, because what you describe is not possible. Give one example (game or real world) where this has ever happened. EVE stops being a game about freedom when you start gerrymandering it to cater to people who don't like it's original concept in the 1st place.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2015-02-09 18:10:04 UTC
Rockstede wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Part of it may the fact that a girl in teamspeak is generally enough to reduce corps of grown men to teenagers in a **** measuring contest. I imagine it's amusing at first, but I expect the novelty wears off after a while.



We stamped out that bullshit a few years ago.



Lol BS


Nope, it happened.

The last guy that said "hur dur a w0man m8k me a sammich" in fleet with me got a swift podding.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#139 - 2015-02-09 18:10:28 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Eve (in most cases) is the only MMO left where I get heckled instantly for describing myself as a feminist.

Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is.


If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity, many of which often even work against eachother. The fact that you're willing to dismiss the entire thing offhand suggests you have a lot of personal bias and resentment.

I know quite a bit about feminism. I was a feminist for several years. But when followers of the movement almost universally harass a rocket scientist to tears for wearing a tacky Hawaiian shirt on television, it tends to open your eyes. That was the one event which really led me to start questioning and digging deeper. And the more I looked, the less I liked what I saw.

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Also, you basically just agreed with me for your whole post, just with an attitude of more or less "yeah, but so what?", except for the first part.

You're exactly right. There are aspects of the game and its culture that turn women away. Where we differ is that you think this is a problem, and I do not. Now I don't condone people being sexist - that is a problem and I don't deny that there is some of that. What I deny is that this is what's responsible for women being only 5% of EVE players. It isn't. There's just no evidence to suggest that, when other online gaming communities with the exact same issues see much greater numbers of female players.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#140 - 2015-02-09 18:10:54 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
. The absolute refusal of many Eve players to show basic mature empathy for people around you and adjust the way you act accordingly.


It is for the new person to adjust to the existing environment, not the other way around. The expectation that people will adjust to YOU just because you exist isn't a female thing, lots of males do that too (as evidenced by these very forums lol). It's wrong no matter who is doing it.

In other words, it's not our job to be welcoming, its the new member's job to make a place for themselves here. whether they are male or female is irrelevant.


See, this is what I'm talking about. You're acting like I'm throwing a stick at your beehive just for pointing this stuff out, when all I'm saying is explaining why people are put off.


No, I understand you are saying why. I'm saying you're right, this is why some people (not just women) suck too much to lay EVE lol.

This is why I say it's good that EVE is the way it is (a rather exclusive niche game), rather than being the kind of mass appeal game that caters to the masses (male and female) who think the world revolves around them and that things should change simply because they join up. EVE is a game of people who join up and say "it is what it is, let me see what I can do with this" and for whatever reason, this way of being appeals more to men than it does to women.
So, women don't play EVE 'cause they suck at EVE, and all things like it...


So, because a person has no Y chromosme, they are automatically awesome at EVE?

"women" don't suck at anything, individuals do. But I wasn't talking about skill at playing a game, I'm talking about temperment.