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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

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Black Pedro
Mine.
#1101 - 2015-02-09 15:43:56 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

In fact I have gone out of my way to point out this is a sandbox game and people do things for all sorts of motivations in addition to profit.


OHHHH, so we are back to the motivations for why people do things now? Because the motivations of gankers are sacrosanct and should be honored above all, but the motivations of others should be thrown out the window?


Hauler, calm down. I don't see how you think I am attaching any precedence to ganker motivations over the motivations of others, or that gankers deserve some special rights in the game. People do stuff in this game for many reasons, often complex and opaque to other players. Sometimes it can be as banal as ganking another player for laughs because you have some ships to burn, or it could be part of an elaborate plot to bring down a nullsec power. Whatever motivates a ganker to destroy a ship at loss doesn't change the economic reality that they just lost more ISK in ships than they will gain in loot, which serves as a powerful disincentive, and in-built limit to the the practice.

Valterra Craven wrote:

So let me be clear on what my agenda actually is, since everyone seems to be missing it. To argue with pro-gankers. It really is that simple. After all, my motivations on why shouldn't matter, right?

If you enjoy arguing with people in the forums have at it. It has been apparent for a while now that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and if you find this fun by all means keep going, just like everyone else here. At some point people will tire of you, you will tire of rehashing the same things over and over, or an ISD will decide that this has gone on long enough.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1102 - 2015-02-09 15:49:36 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:

I'm pretty sure no one would complain about anything if NPC's were the only source of conflict in the video game Eve Online.


Well I'm pretty sure that there's a wealth of history on human nature that disagrees with this. There is ALWAYS something to complain about.


Well that's just silly. History is just living in the past.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1103 - 2015-02-09 16:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiasa Kite
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.


There's always a way. It just a question of how motivated the attacker is.

I'm struggling to think of any scenario where a defending player isn't able to defend himself.

e: Particularly in HiSec.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1104 - 2015-02-09 17:07:50 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Refusing to work with others or use any other tools however is.


No, it isn't.


"Oh hey they are using fleets to attack people, lets not tank our ****, refuse to work with even one other player and fly AFK."


Yea, this is incompetence.
Valterra Craven
#1105 - 2015-02-09 22:26:44 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:

I'm struggling to think of any scenario where a defending player isn't able to defend himself.


I'm struggling to think of any scenario where an attacker can not defeat even the most dedicated defender.
Valterra Craven
#1106 - 2015-02-09 22:29:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Refusing to work with others or use any other tools however is.


No, it isn't.


"Oh hey they are using fleets to attack people, lets not tank our ****, refuse to work with even one other player and fly AFK."


Yea, this is incompetence.


Maybe if you put ALL of those arguments together. But if you recall I wasn't refuting all of those arguments together. I was refuting that being anti-social (which is a valid play style no matter how you slice it) is not incompetence.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1107 - 2015-02-09 23:41:22 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.


There's always a way. It just a question of how motivated the attacker is.


List one, then. Because if you've discovered some perfect gank method, I'd love to hear it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#1108 - 2015-02-09 23:52:54 UTC
hi
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1109 - 2015-02-10 04:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
What we obviously need are far more severe consequences for ganking, which would lead the gankers themselves to be a lot more selective about who they gank.
Valterra Craven
#1110 - 2015-02-10 04:10:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


List one, then. Because if you've discovered some perfect gank method, I'd love to hear it.


Gank the webber, then catch the freighter on the next out bound.
Valterra Craven
#1111 - 2015-02-10 04:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Ned Thomas wrote:

History is just living in the past.


You're never through with the past until the past is through with you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1112 - 2015-02-10 07:33:18 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Refusing to work with others or use any other tools however is.


No, it isn't.


"Oh hey they are using fleets to attack people, lets not tank our ****, refuse to work with even one other player and fly AFK."


Yea, this is incompetence.


Maybe if you put ALL of those arguments together. But if you recall I wasn't refuting all of those arguments together. I was refuting that being anti-social (which is a valid play style no matter how you slice it) is not incompetence.


Yes it is incompetence when you refuse to work with others in a multiplayer game and then whine about how you cannot defend against a fleet.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1113 - 2015-02-10 10:05:14 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


List one, then. Because if you've discovered some perfect gank method, I'd love to hear it.


Gank the webber, then catch the freighter on the next out bound.

Gankalysts have neither the tracking nor range to deal with any remotely PvP-capable ship, so the cheap option is out. Thrashers can one- or two-shot frigate sized vessels, but cruisers don't offer any easy & cheap ganks. A tornado can conceivably take down a cruiser (tracking is effectively 20% of what's stated vs cruisers), but that's a 100mil expense to take down 25-50million ISK worth of ship. This also doesn't take into account the fact that the gank fleet is now down a pilot for 15 minutes while the web alt can immediately reship.

By far and away the most effective and easiest strategy for taking down a freighter with a webber is to simply bump-tackle the freighter before he can warp - which is significantly more difficult than doing the same thing to an unescorted freighter. With an escort at hand, and sufficient preparation, the bump tackle can still be broken.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
Something Really Pretentious
#1114 - 2015-02-10 11:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Veers Belvar wrote:
What we obviously need are far more severe consequences for ganking, which would lead the gankers themselves to be a lot more selective about who they gank.


Eve doesn't need more consequences for gankers...it needs haulers and miners who aren't complacent and take actions to prevent or lessen the chances of getting ganked. What eve needs is people to take personal responsibility for themselves..rather than taking away from someone else because they don't want to do what it takes to be safer. What eve needs is people to have the common sense to take their own safety into their own hands. Eve was built this way for a reason...if you're not willing to protect what you have, you don't deserve to have it...period. Twisted

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1115 - 2015-02-10 14:09:04 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


List one, then. Because if you've discovered some perfect gank method, I'd love to hear it.


Gank the webber, then catch the freighter on the next out bound.


Because if my webber is ganked I'm totally just going to keep going along my route, and not, you know, dock. Nevermind that snagging my Dramiel before it warps is a worthy feat for a Catalyst.

I mean, that's just pathetic, if that's all you have to say about it. This has literally never happened to me, and the solution to it easily saves the freighter anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valterra Craven
#1116 - 2015-02-10 16:33:09 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

Hauler, calm down. I don't see how you think I am attaching any precedence to ganker motivations over the motivations of others, or that gankers deserve some special rights in the game. People do stuff in this game for many reasons, often complex and opaque to other players. Sometimes it can be as banal as ganking another player for laughs because you have some ships to burn, or it could be part of an elaborate plot to bring down a nullsec power.


My apologies, I was combating Kaarous Aldurald and Jenn aSide's arguments that I as a player shouldn't care about another players motivations. My point is that both sides ("ganker" and "gankee") have motivations on how they play the game. Neither of these motivations are inherently bad or inherently good.

Black Pedro wrote:

Whatever motivates a ganker to destroy a ship at loss doesn't change the economic reality that they just lost more ISK in ships than they will gain in loot, which serves as a powerful disincentive, and in-built limit to the the practice.


It does serve as a powerful disincentive when and only when the income is confined to solely in-game generation means. Given that organizations like CODE have near limitless resources given their meta-game they don't have effective disincentives.

Black Pedro wrote:

If you enjoy arguing with people in the forums have at it. It has been apparent for a while now that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and if you find this fun by all means keep going, just like everyone else here. At some point people will tire of you, you will tire of rehashing the same things over and over, or an ISD will decide that this has gone on long enough.


Well its your opinion that I'm doing it for the sake of it.
Valterra Craven
#1117 - 2015-02-10 16:35:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Yes it is incompetence when you refuse to work with others in a multiplayer game and then whine about how you cannot defend against a fleet.


Given that I've never made the argument (nor have I seen anyone else in this thread) that a lone player should be able to survive a combined fleet, its not incompetence and its not whining.
Valterra Craven
#1118 - 2015-02-10 16:38:47 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Gankalysts have neither the tracking nor range to deal with any remotely PvP-capable ship, so the cheap option is out. Thrashers can one- or two-shot frigate sized vessels, but cruisers don't offer any easy & cheap ganks. A tornado can conceivably take down a cruiser (tracking is effectively 20% of what's stated vs cruisers), but that's a 100mil expense to take down 25-50million ISK worth of ship. This also doesn't take into account the fact that the gank fleet is now down a pilot for 15 minutes while the web alt can immediately reship.

By far and away the most effective and easiest strategy for taking down a freighter with a webber is to simply bump-tackle the freighter before he can warp - which is significantly more difficult than doing the same thing to an unescorted freighter. With an escort at hand, and sufficient preparation, the bump tackle can still be broken.


I never said it wouldn't be hard or a pain in the ass. What I said is that its not 100%. People like PL have shown just how dedicated they can be to their objectives (like their supers watch list of even gamers that have been out for a year or more and when they come back, pop them dead) The internet is a good example of what I'm getting at. There is nothing that is not hackable given a dedicated attacker.
Valterra Craven
#1119 - 2015-02-10 16:39:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Because if my webber is ganked I'm totally just going to keep going along my route, and not, you know, dock. Nevermind that snagging my Dramiel before it warps is a worthy feat for a Catalyst.


You don't sound like a dedicated attacker.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1120 - 2015-02-10 17:45:59 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Gankalysts have neither the tracking nor range to deal with any remotely PvP-capable ship, so the cheap option is out. Thrashers can one- or two-shot frigate sized vessels, but cruisers don't offer any easy & cheap ganks. A tornado can conceivably take down a cruiser (tracking is effectively 20% of what's stated vs cruisers), but that's a 100mil expense to take down 25-50million ISK worth of ship. This also doesn't take into account the fact that the gank fleet is now down a pilot for 15 minutes while the web alt can immediately reship.

By far and away the most effective and easiest strategy for taking down a freighter with a webber is to simply bump-tackle the freighter before he can warp - which is significantly more difficult than doing the same thing to an unescorted freighter. With an escort at hand, and sufficient preparation, the bump tackle can still be broken.


I never said it wouldn't be hard or a pain in the ass.

Please explain how a dedicated ganker would overcome these obstacles. Bearing in mind he has a window no more than 10 seconds long at any given gate, every gank attempt is guaranteed to run a loss, security status and kill rights, along with the fact that low SP characters will have a significant penalty to their damage projection.

/runonsentence

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein