These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1081 - 2015-02-09 14:21:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Well given, that you've admitted that the bounty system is broken, you've admitted that there are no effective ways to dispense justice.


And again with the outright lies.

There are plenty. But they are pointless if you aren't a real player.



+1

Look at the words that poster uses. "Justice" , "Victim" etc. It all reinforces my belief that when i see such postings, the problem lies in the posters general incompatibility with the kind of game EVE is rather than some glaring issue with game mechanics.


I still maintain that if all the horrible no good very bad things that people do to each other in Eve were instead done by computer controlled characters, no one would ever complain.
Valterra Craven
#1082 - 2015-02-09 14:22:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


And again with the outright lies.

There are plenty. But they are pointless if you aren't a real player.



Well if its an outright lie, surely it would be easy for you to disprove?

But I understand how its easier to just label everyone and not make an actual argument.
Valterra Craven
#1083 - 2015-02-09 14:25:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Look at the words that poster uses. "Justice" , "Victim" etc. It all reinforces my belief that when i see such postings, the problem lies in the posters general incompatibility with the kind of game EVE is rather than some glaring issue with game mechanics.


See you should just stop, because you are very bad at this. Try to keep up.

1. Gankers used the argument that the current mechanics are balanced because miners could dispense justice if they so chose.
2. I argued that based on the current mechanics that this is not true. The terms used were proffered by you guys, not me. If you want people to stop using the words justice and victim, then stop using them yourselves..
Valterra Craven
#1084 - 2015-02-09 14:33:17 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

There are effective ways to dispense justice, just not ones that are profitable. If you fall into the carebear trap of viewing everything in terms of ISK/hour, then no, there is no direct financial benefit for you to fight the gankers. However, this game is not always maximizing your ISK/hour or there would be no gankers as pretty much any other activity in the game pays more than ganking.


WOW. Double standards much. You guys have been blasting every anti ganker post in this thread saying that ganking is pretty much solely about profit. So basically what you are saying is that gankers are carebears.

Black Pedro wrote:

What Eve really is about is imposing your will on New Eden


No, what Eve is really about is imposing your will on other players.
Valterra Craven
#1085 - 2015-02-09 14:34:57 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
I'll assume.


Assumptions arguments do not make.
Valterra Craven
#1086 - 2015-02-09 14:36:05 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:

I still maintain that if all the horrible no good very bad things that people do to each other in Eve were instead done by computer controlled characters, no one would ever complain.


Because people don't/can't naturally find things to complain about?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1087 - 2015-02-09 14:36:11 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Well if its an outright lie, surely it would be easy for you to disprove?


Several people have, over the course of the last few days.

And you have ignored it every time. Because they don't fit your agenda.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1088 - 2015-02-09 14:38:12 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

1. Gankers used the argument that the current mechanics are balanced because miners could dispense justice if they so chose.


Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1089 - 2015-02-09 14:43:56 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
What does lo-sec have to do with ganking?

Nothing. It's an area of space where if someone wrongs you, you're better equipped to deal your own version of justice.

Quote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Not in HiSec, no. It was never intended to offer that kind of play.


Some sandbox.

If the difficulty in getting vengeance is too annoying in HiSec, move to another region of space. Choice. Sandbox.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1090 - 2015-02-09 14:46:43 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
1. Gankers used the argument that the current mechanics are balanced because miners could dispense justice if they so chose.

Actually, they've been arguing it's easy to defend yourself.[/quote]

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Valterra Craven
#1091 - 2015-02-09 15:00:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Several people have, over the course of the last few days.

And you have ignored it every time. Because they don't fit your agenda.


Oh? that must be a pretty special talent since I've replied to almost 100% of the posts addressing me.

What's my agenda?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1092 - 2015-02-09 15:00:44 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

There are effective ways to dispense justice, just not ones that are profitable. If you fall into the carebear trap of viewing everything in terms of ISK/hour, then no, there is no direct financial benefit for you to fight the gankers. However, this game is not always maximizing your ISK/hour or there would be no gankers as pretty much any other activity in the game pays more than ganking.


WOW. Double standards much. You guys have been blasting every anti ganker post in this thread saying that ganking is pretty much solely about profit. So basically what you are saying is that gankers are carebears.


You seem to hear only what you want to hear. What I have explained several times in this thread (like here, here and here) to you is that while making yourself an unprofitable target goes a long way to making you safer, this is a sandbox and there are motivations beyond profit to why people explode haulers.

I have never claimed that ganking is solely about profit. In fact I have gone out of my way to point out this is a sandbox game and people do things for all sorts of motivations in addition to profit. But I have said, and will repeat yet again to you, that not making yourself a target by overloading and anti-tanking your ship is a strong disincentive for gankers to gank you.

I don't see how gankers blowing people up for various reasons, including direct profit, makes them carebears by any normal definition of the term, although I guess that depends on what your definition of a carebear is.

Valterra Craven wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

What Eve really is about is imposing your will on New Eden

No, what Eve is really about is imposing your will on other players.

Exactly, now you are getting it. Eve is a competitive sandbox game where each of our actions influences all the other players in New Eden. While there are many ways to avoid the direct imposition of another player's will on you, especially in highsec, you are playing the wrong game if you think you have a right to be left alone. You are not suppose to ever feel safe in New Eden, and it is other players imposing their will on you that mostly enforces that.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Valterra Craven
#1093 - 2015-02-09 15:02:25 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Nothing. It's an area of space where if someone wrongs you, you're better equipped to deal your own version of justice.


Which has nothing to do with ganking.

Quote:

If the difficulty in getting vengeance is too annoying in HiSec, move to another region of space. Choice. Sandbox.


Some choice. You'd think if ganking was soooo hard that gankers would move to lo-sec.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#1094 - 2015-02-09 15:03:44 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
No, what Eve is really about is imposing your will on other players.

Yes

/thread

Evil RatKid
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1095 - 2015-02-09 15:11:15 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:

I still maintain that if all the horrible no good very bad things that people do to each other in Eve were instead done by computer controlled characters, no one would ever complain.


Because people don't/can't naturally find things to complain about?


No, I'm pretty sure no one would complain about anything if NPC's were the only source of conflict in the video game Eve Online.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1096 - 2015-02-09 15:16:45 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Nothing. It's an area of space where if someone wrongs you, you're better equipped to deal your own version of justice.


Which has nothing to do with ganking.

Glad we agree.

Quote:
Quote:

If the difficulty in getting vengeance is too annoying in HiSec, move to another region of space. Choice. Sandbox.


Some choice. You'd think if ganking was soooo hard that gankers would move to lo-sec.

Their targets live in HiSec. Or is this a stealth buff losec agenda?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Valterra Craven
#1097 - 2015-02-09 15:17:38 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

I have never claimed that ganking is solely about profit.


No, but what everyone else has pointed out is that gankers can not gank unprofitably forever, otherwise they'd run out of money.

Black Pedro wrote:

In fact I have gone out of my way to point out this is a sandbox game and people do things for all sorts of motivations in addition to profit.


OHHHH, so we are back to the motivations for why people do things now? Because the motivations of gankers are sacrosanct and should be honored above all, but the motivations of others should be thrown out the window?

Black Pedro wrote:

But I have said, and will repeat yet again to you, that not making yourself a target by overloading and anti-tanking your ship is a strong disincentive for gankers to gank you.


You can say it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I already AGREE with you on this point.

Black Pedro wrote:

I don't see how gankers blowing people up for various reasons, including direct profit, makes them carebears by any normal definition of the term, although I guess that depends on what your definition of a carebear is.


As defined by you, a carebear is someone that cares about isk/hour, and by that definition that includes gankers. Where the isk comes from is after all irrelevant since as you already pointed out that meta gaming is a legitimate point of gameplay.

Black Pedro wrote:
While there are many ways to avoid the direct imposition of another player's will on you, especially in highsec, you are playing the wrong game if you think you have a right to be left alone. You are not suppose to ever feel safe in New Eden, and it is other players imposing their will on you that mostly enforces that.


Least I be accused of "ignoring this point because it doesn't fit my agenda". Hey, guess what, again I've already agreed with you and EVERY pro-ganker in this thread that you are not supposed to be safe anywhere in eve.

So let me be clear on what my agenda actually is, since everyone seems to be missing it. To argue with pro-gankers. It really is that simple. After all, my motivations on why shouldn't matter, right?
Valterra Craven
#1098 - 2015-02-09 15:20:05 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:

I'm pretty sure no one would complain about anything if NPC's were the only source of conflict in the video game Eve Online.


Well I'm pretty sure that there's a wealth of history on human nature that disagrees with this. There is ALWAYS something to complain about.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1099 - 2015-02-09 15:22:51 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
No, but what everyone else has pointed out is that gankers can not gank unprofitably forever, otherwise they'd run out of money.

Hence why the largest ganking alliance in the game is supported via donations.

Quote:
OHHHH, so we are back to the motivations for why people do things now? Because the motivations of gankers are sacrosanct and should be honored above all, but the motivations of others should be thrown out the window?

That's a nice strawman you're building there.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Valterra Craven
#1100 - 2015-02-09 15:23:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.


There's always a way. It just a question of how motivated the attacker is.