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Crime & Punishment

 
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End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
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Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2015-02-07 16:00:55 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

As I already noted, hiring counter mercs is a waste of ISK due to the way hisec wardeccers operate


Except that isn't true. Some of the biggest dunks I've ever seen in highsec were by defender mercs. (well, that and CODE)


Quote:
and an industry corp by definition is going to have ties with fewer effective pvp pilots than their opposition.



If only there was a chat channel for exactly that purpose...


When is the last time a CODE or a major merc corp (read wardec spamming hub campers) was successfully dunked by one of the small time industrial corps they were abusing? When I see the killmails I will believe it. As of yet all I see is chuckles here and elsewhere about mining barges and lolfit combat ships flown by the clueless being shredded by the glorious knights of elite pvp.

Nowhere did I say these killmail farms can't hire mercs to defend them. I did say that they're not going to get much for their ISK against targets that are by nature much less vulnerable and are knowledgeable in the mysteries of watchlists, locator agents, neutral scouts and logi alt hordes.

You are strawman-ing everything I say like I can't read the gloating over "tears" on your own blogs.


And yet Break a Wish foundation, inflicted 2 billion isk worth of damage to Marmite collective when they declared war on Code. Both are major merc corps. Clearly you are wrong, sir.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#342 - 2015-02-07 16:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Solonius Rex wrote:
sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.
You've never had a ship spinning competition with your corpies while waiting on a timer to expire or a target to log in? Yeah.. boredom is a wonderful drugTwisted

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#343 - 2015-02-08 04:37:34 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.


Wrong...if you tank long enough for them to show up, they blow up the bad people and save you. Sure sounds like protection to me.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#344 - 2015-02-08 05:18:20 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

As I already noted, hiring counter mercs is a waste of ISK due to the way hisec wardeccers operate


Except that isn't true. Some of the biggest dunks I've ever seen in highsec were by defender mercs. (well, that and CODE)


Quote:
and an industry corp by definition is going to have ties with fewer effective pvp pilots than their opposition.



If only there was a chat channel for exactly that purpose...


When is the last time a CODE or a major merc corp (read wardec spamming hub campers) was successfully dunked by one of the small time industrial corps they were abusing? When I see the killmails I will believe it. As of yet all I see is chuckles here and elsewhere about mining barges and lolfit combat ships flown by the clueless being shredded by the glorious knights of elite pvp.

Nowhere did I say these killmail farms can't hire mercs to defend them. I did say that they're not going to get much for their ISK against targets that are by nature much less vulnerable and are knowledgeable in the mysteries of watchlists, locator agents, neutral scouts and logi alt hordes.

You are strawman-ing everything I say like I can't read the gloating over "tears" on your own blogs.


And yet Break a Wish foundation, inflicted 2 billion isk worth of damage to Marmite collective when they declared war on Code. Both are major merc corps. Clearly you are wrong, sir.


2 Billion. Lol. So they lost 2 ships? That's peanuts compared to the massive fleet of blingboats possessed by the larger merc corps. Someone in DEAF just lost a vindicator worth 7 billion. Which is exactly my point. And that's a rare occasion where 2 of the largest highsec pvp entities who were previously de facto allies went at it because somebody nuked somebody else's freighter alt and apparently diplomacy is not one of loyalanon's strong suits.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2015-02-08 05:31:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

You having an issue with people making risk free ISK. I have an issue with people farming risk free kills, which I believe hold a lot more intrinsic value than video game money.


And unfortunately for you, EVE is a PvP game. There are no "risk free kills", by the way. Last time I checked, every new account starts with gun skills trained.

The only people who are defenseless in EVE are people who deliberately made the choice to be so. That should have consequences, and I try to help make sure that it does.

Quote:

And you only have an issue with people making risk free ISK in highsec, when that option is just as available to nullsec blocs controlling large sections of the map.


That's not true at all, I wholeheartedly support cloaking against people farming in nullsec too, and I have done a fair bit of it myself.

But then I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about, just trying to advance your carebear talking points.

Quote:

Getting a 99% green killboard while you and your friends sit on a hub undock every day should not be a thing.


Then go play Star Trek Online, with the rest of the people who want a functionally single player game.


Why don't you go kill some hard targets instead of clubbing baby seals. What you guys do is one step above the shooting of red crosses or rocks you so despise. Get a solo kill. Break a gate camp or dunk some station huggers. Get some victories over people using their skillpoint advantage and superior knowledge of mechanics to turn their corner of EVE into a kill farm where they've effectively eliminated risk.

What you do is akin to playing Call of Duty against a team that's never played an FPS in their life or people who are simply constitutionally incapable of being good at video games. You crush them every day and gloat about all the new and exciting ways you kill them.
Shailagh
6Six6Six6Six
#346 - 2015-02-08 05:53:57 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

You having an issue with people making risk free ISK. I have an issue with people farming risk free kills, which I believe hold a lot more intrinsic value than video game money.


And unfortunately for you, EVE is a PvP game. There are no "risk free kills", by the way. Last time I checked, every new account starts with gun skills trained.

The only people who are defenseless in EVE are people who deliberately made the choice to be so. That should have consequences, and I try to help make sure that it does.

Quote:

And you only have an issue with people making risk free ISK in highsec, when that option is just as available to nullsec blocs controlling large sections of the map.


That's not true at all, I wholeheartedly support cloaking against people farming in nullsec too, and I have done a fair bit of it myself.

But then I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about, just trying to advance your carebear talking points.

Quote:

Getting a 99% green killboard while you and your friends sit on a hub undock every day should not be a thing.


Then go play Star Trek Online, with the rest of the people who want a functionally single player game.


Why don't you go kill some hard targets instead of clubbing baby seals. What you guys do is one step above the shooting of red crosses or rocks you so despise. Get a solo kill. Break a gate camp or dunk some station huggers. Get some victories over people using their skillpoint advantage and superior knowledge of mechanics to turn their corner of EVE into a kill farm where they've effectively eliminated risk.

What you do is akin to playing Call of Duty against a team that's never played an FPS in their life or people who are simply constitutionally incapable of being good at video games. You crush them every day and gloat about all the new and exciting ways you kill them.


Says the LowBear beacon-orbiting-blobbing-plex-LP-farming-blued up pansy

GTFO outa my eve. We dont want you or your kind
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2015-02-08 08:09:10 UTC
Well. Someone must have gotten bumped off his station once too many times tonight. Or the gate camp has been exceptionally unproductive?
Jayze Severasse
Divided by Zer0
#348 - 2015-02-08 08:30:51 UTC
I believe the CSM notes mentioned "Societies, and Secret Societies" this should be seen as favour-some to all in reality.

The inter Concord thing is opt in...in reality, what Company doesn't get police assistance when people go ballistic?? (Elite killers could handle it in house, and Wormholers probably won't get help)

Lastly, the POS update which I hope is included in Tiamat is aimed at increased security by compartmentalizing roles...if you want to infiltrate you gotta do a little more effort is all.

This isn't the end of anything, it's just harder, ie....more realistic. Imho
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#349 - 2015-02-08 13:06:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Why don't you go kill some hard targets instead of clubbing baby seals.


Why would I? Predators go where the prey are. And since highsec is so bloated and over stuffed, where better to ply my trade?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2015-02-08 14:51:27 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


2 Billion. Lol. So they lost 2 ships? That's peanuts compared to the massive fleet of blingboats possessed by the larger merc corps. Someone in DEAF just lost a vindicator worth 7 billion. Which is exactly my point.


And yet, the outcome was exactly what an indy corp wouldve wanted.... No more wardecs from marmite to Code, anymore. Which necessarilyl disproves your point.

Its peanuts, but it stopped the corp from wardeccing the other corp. The industrial corp, can fight back, and win. Your argument has been disproven.

Quote:
And that's a rare occasion where 2 of the largest highsec pvp entities who were previously de facto allies went at it because somebody nuked somebody else's freighter alt and apparently diplomacy is not one of loyalanon's strong suits.


So this begs the question, did your corp that was wardecced, even hire a merc corp to try and protect his own corp? Did he schedule mining ops and ask for that merc corp to protect them during those ops? Well?
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2015-02-08 15:00:37 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Why don't you go kill some hard targets instead of clubbing baby seals. What you guys do is one step above the shooting of red crosses or rocks you so despise. Get a solo kill. Break a gate camp or dunk some station huggers. Get some victories over people using their skillpoint advantage and superior knowledge of mechanics to turn their corner of EVE into a kill farm where they've effectively eliminated risk.


Yeah, cause Eve is not a game where the strong prey on the weak. If a corp shows up with 150 members, and the opposing corp only shows up with 50, the larger corp asks 100 people to leave, to make it fair. If a new player accidentally flies through nullsec, he is off limits.

This is literally how ridiculous you sound. Youre saying that no one should go after the easy targets. Youre saying that a nullsec gatecamp shouldnt target single players, because theyre easy targets. What an absurd notion.

Eve is a game where you pick on the weak. Whether in nullsec, lowsec, or hisec. Clearly, youre in the wrong game, if you are expecting otherwise.

Heres a game you might enjoy. http://www.hellokittyonline.com/
Quote:

What you do is akin to playing Call of Duty against a team that's never played an FPS in their life or people who are simply constitutionally incapable of being good at video games. You crush them every day and gloat about all the new and exciting ways you kill them.


Thats absurd.

What youre basically saying is that someone who plays Call of Duty just to enjoy the graphics, shouldnt be killed, because they are putting up no resistence and are not firing back. But when you play Call of Duty, you play, knowing that you will be shot on sight from the enemies team.

In Eve, you play knowing that you can be shot and killed the moment you undock. Its harsh, and its painful, but thats how the game works.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#352 - 2015-02-08 15:02:25 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.


Wrong...if you tank long enough for them to show up, they blow up the bad people and save you. Sure sounds like protection to me.


So, is that how the police work in real life, too?

Do they only show up when a crime is being committed?

When someone is stalking you, will the police only act if you are in the middle of being raped/murdered?

Seriously?
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2015-02-08 15:03:44 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Well. Someone must have gotten bumped off his station once too many times tonight. Or the gate camp has been exceptionally unproductive?


Why arent you against lowsec and nullsec gatecamps? They pick on the weak. Its no different than clubbing a baby seal.
Jayze Severasse
Divided by Zer0
#354 - 2015-02-08 15:36:44 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Well. Someone must have gotten bumped off his station once too many times tonight. Or the gate camp has been exceptionally unproductive?


Why arent you against lowsec and nullsec gatecamps? They pick on the weak. Its no different than clubbing a baby seal.


Not true at all...gate camps are like the great whites waiting to pick off full grown seals. Ganking in hisec is ridiculous and needless bashing of those who refuse to fight to generate content for your clique. Why not quit clubbing seal pups in shallow waters and go hunt larger prey in the great yonder?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#355 - 2015-02-08 15:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.


Wrong...if you tank long enough for them to show up, they blow up the bad people and save you. Sure sounds like protection to me.
You're wrong, if you survive the gank that's called a rescue, which is not protection.

Protection would involve defending or guarding people from attack, Concord does neither. They don't defend anybody, their role is to punish.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#356 - 2015-02-08 16:42:51 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Why don't you go kill some hard targets instead of clubbing baby seals. What you guys do is one step above the shooting of red crosses or rocks you so despise. Get a solo kill. Break a gate camp or dunk some station huggers. Get some victories over people using their skillpoint advantage and superior knowledge of mechanics to turn their corner of EVE into a kill farm where they've effectively eliminated risk.

What you do is akin to playing Call of Duty against a team that's never played an FPS in their life or people who are simply constitutionally incapable of being good at video games. You crush them every day and gloat about all the new and exciting ways you kill them.


The fail is strong with this post.

Where to start... Ah! Yes.

Most players in EVE dont want a fair fight. If you find yourself in said fair fight, you have either conducted an inadequate assessment of the area or failed in planning. The goal is to WIN. So, to use your analogy, if I am hunting seals, what better ones to find than baby ones?

"Get a solo kill" - would only apply to someone who is fascinated with their killboard. Killboards have turned EVE into a stat-tracker contest. But killboards dont measure success. If you scam someone and win, its not on a KB. If you scout your team to victory, your not on a KB. If you ransom and collect, etc.

Now... for your call of duty rant:

COD is a shooter FPS. EVE is not. They are both games, but thats where the similarity ends in total.

Also, "being good at video games" is likely one of the most daft things I have ever read on this forum. Its like saying I am a better TV watcher than someone else...

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#357 - 2015-02-08 18:21:52 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.


Wrong...if you tank long enough for them to show up, they blow up the bad people and save you. Sure sounds like protection to me.


So, is that how the police work in real life, too?

Do they only show up when a crime is being committed?

When someone is stalking you, will the police only act if you are in the middle of being raped/murdered?

Seriously?


Stalking is itself a crime...that is why the police intervene. Until a crime is actually committed, police do not get involved. They are not your personal security force...and CONCORD functions in precisely the same manner.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#358 - 2015-02-08 18:36:53 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.


Wrong...if you tank long enough for them to show up, they blow up the bad people and save you. Sure sounds like protection to me.
You're wrong, if you survive the gank that's called a rescue, which is not protection.

Protection would involve defending or guarding people from attack, Concord does neither. They don't defend anybody, their role is to punish.


By punishing attackers mid gank, they are protecting the victims. Not all protection relies on preventing crime from occurring in the first place - protection can also consist of intervening in the act and preventing the successful completion of the crime.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2015-02-08 18:56:23 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:

Most players in EVE dont want a fair fight. If you find yourself in said fair fight, you have either conducted an inadequate assessment of the area or failed in planning. The goal is to WIN. So, to use your analogy, if I am hunting seals, what better ones to find than baby ones?


Agreed. Fair fights are for staged tournaments and dueling. In a game with EVE's strategic depth, it's much more interesting to be able to choose fights where you have the advantage and avoid fights where you have the disadvantage (see Sun Tzu). You will choose incorrectly sometimes and lose, but that's part of what makes it exciting and challenging.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#360 - 2015-02-08 21:03:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
By punishing attackers mid gank, they are protecting the victims. Not all protection relies on preventing crime from occurring in the first place -
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word protect, which is defined as to keep safe from harm or injury. Concord doesn't do this, injury or harm has already occurred when they arrive.

Quote:
intervening in the act and preventing the successful completion of the crime.
Which is called a rescue. When Police intervene in an armed robbery they are not protecting people, they are rescuing them.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.