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Crime & Punishment

 
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End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
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Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#321 - 2015-02-06 23:00:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


There is the crack in your argument. CONCORD does not protect anyone.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Elyham
Perkone
Caldari State
#322 - 2015-02-06 23:38:12 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


Using real life examples to justify changing how things work with internet spaceships...

Of course in real life the cops would actually show up and kill you themselves.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#323 - 2015-02-07 01:09:24 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
It is tantamount to real life crime


Roll

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2015-02-07 04:32:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

As I already noted, hiring counter mercs is a waste of ISK due to the way hisec wardeccers operate


Except that isn't true. Some of the biggest dunks I've ever seen in highsec were by defender mercs. (well, that and CODE)


Quote:
and an industry corp by definition is going to have ties with fewer effective pvp pilots than their opposition.



If only there was a chat channel for exactly that purpose...


When is the last time a CODE or a major merc corp (read wardec spamming hub campers) was successfully dunked by one of the small time industrial corps they were abusing? When I see the killmails I will believe it. As of yet all I see is chuckles here and elsewhere about mining barges and lolfit combat ships flown by the clueless being shredded by the glorious knights of elite pvp.

Nowhere did I say these killmail farms can't hire mercs to defend them. I did say that they're not going to get much for their ISK against targets that are by nature much less vulnerable and are knowledgeable in the mysteries of watchlists, locator agents, neutral scouts and logi alt hordes.

You are strawman-ing everything I say like I can't read the gloating over "tears" on your own blogs.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2015-02-07 04:41:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

That's right, go hide under that blanket of smug elitism.


And you go right on enjoying that victim mentality you've got going.


Victim mentality? I lose ships on a regular basis without much concern. I don't claim to be good at this game, but at least I don't need a blob or 2 logi alts to make me brave enough to take fights.

You having an issue with people making risk free ISK. I have an issue with people farming risk free kills, which I believe hold a lot more intrinsic value than video game money. And you only have an issue with people making risk free ISK in highsec, when that option is just as available to nullsec blocs controlling large sections of the map.

Getting a 99% green killboard while you and your friends sit on a hub undock every day should not be a thing.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2015-02-07 05:00:14 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


If only there was a chat channel for exactly that purpose...


He clearly doesnt understand the concept of a merc corp. He keeps saying he nweds ties with elite PVP corps in order to hire them to protect him, as if the only people who can hire merc corps are people who know the CEO of those corps in real life and are BFF with them or something.

Has he not seen the dozen or so ads on C&P alone, of Merc corps offering their services? Does he think that these threads are simply Merc corps advertising between their friends, and that utter strangers cant hire them or something?


That straw man again. He's a nimble fellow.

Let me define "ties" as an in-game relationship, occasional blue status, on/off cooperation, knowledge of tactics, organization, and geography. I'd venture to say that the mercenary / ganker / belligerent undesirables community are a fairly tight knit group that aren't inclined to shoot at each other very much because well, shooting people who can shoot back effectively is hard. Shooting people who only return fire via hilarious evemails is much better.

And the wardec happy members of that community make a practice of warring against people who don't read the forums, don't know what C & P is, can't afford 250M a week or whatever it is to hire marmite, heck they can't even figure out that battleship sized guns are a bad choice against assault frigates.

And if by god you do end up in a war against a group that manages to present an effective opposition, you can just avoid them and turn your attention to one of your 30 other ongoing wars. And if the aforementioned effective opposition wants to come to the trade hub undock and duke it out with a half dozen logi supported vindicators, good luck to them.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2015-02-07 05:28:22 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
It is tantamount to real life crime


No, EVE crimes are not anything close to real life crimes. Let us hope that EVE allows even one person inclined to real life crime to funnel their negative desires into the virtual world instead. Having been a victim of both real life mugging and EVE ganking, I say please more EVE crime if it would reduce that in real life.
Auduin Ituin
Doomheim
#328 - 2015-02-07 05:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Auduin Ituin
Anyway, people seem to really hate and overestimate war deccers.. A majority are <10 man corps and don't fly Vindicators 23/7. You guys make it out like they're 700 man alliances that have full HG snake Vindicator fleets with 30 man Guardian chain support.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#329 - 2015-02-07 07:11:36 UTC
Auduin Ituin wrote:
Anyway, people seem to really hate and overestimate war deccers.. A majority are <10 man corps and don't fly Vindicators 23/7. You guys make it out like they're 700 man alliances that have full HG snake Vindicator fleet with 30 man Guardian chain support.

It is the same with gankers. Many people come to the forums with the view that gankers are some unnatural menace that have unlimited resources, unlimited manpower and the ability to be everywhere at once. Perhaps it is part of human nature to overestimate the strength of an unknown opponent and assume the worst case scenario, but it isn't very useful to immediately paint yourself as the victim and give up on protecting yourself because you think it impossible to win.

This is a competitive PvP game. Gankers and wardeccers are just other players, sometimes just as new and inexperienced as you are or perhaps you feel. There is much you can do fight against wardeccers, even powerful and organized ones, especially if you have numbers, and there are mechanisms built-in to the game for you to get help. And gankers, well, the mechanics of highsec give you all the cards so you can actually be near 100% safe if that is what you want with just some sacrifice of yield, or spending a little effort.

Eve is designed so you are not 100% safe but that is no reason to give up on your own defense because you cannot be perfectly safe. In fact, figuring out how to protect yourself and balancing that with generating your income is the game.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#330 - 2015-02-07 09:55:03 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#331 - 2015-02-07 10:12:47 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
It is tantamount to real life crime


No, EVE crimes are not anything close to real life crimes. Let us hope that EVE allows even one person inclined to real life crime to funnel their negative desires into the virtual world instead. Having been a victim of both real life mugging and EVE ganking, I say please more EVE crime if it would reduce that in real life.
Some would suggest that having a place which allows you to virtually commit a crime will further those negative desires and allow them to more easily escalate into real life crime. P

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Auduin Ituin
Doomheim
#332 - 2015-02-07 10:23:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drez Arthie wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
It is tantamount to real life crime


No, EVE crimes are not anything close to real life crimes. Let us hope that EVE allows even one person inclined to real life crime to funnel their negative desires into the virtual world instead. Having been a victim of both real life mugging and EVE ganking, I say please more EVE crime if it would reduce that in real life.
Some would suggest that having a place which allows you to virtually commit a crime will further those negative desires and allow them to more easily escalate into real life crime. P
Those would be the edge cases..
Otherwise we'd have 12 year olds running around with guns shooting up each other in real life
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2015-02-07 10:30:09 UTC
Auduin Ituin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drez Arthie wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
It is tantamount to real life crime


No, EVE crimes are not anything close to real life crimes. Let us hope that EVE allows even one person inclined to real life crime to funnel their negative desires into the virtual world instead. Having been a victim of both real life mugging and EVE ganking, I say please more EVE crime if it would reduce that in real life.
Some would suggest that having a place which allows you to virtually commit a crime will further those negative desires and allow them to more easily escalate into real life crime. P
Those would be the edge cases..
Otherwise we'd have 12 year olds running around with guns shooting up each other in real life


Don't we?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2015-02-07 10:33:02 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Auduin Ituin wrote:
Anyway, people seem to really hate and overestimate war dec. rs.. A majority are <10 man corps and don't fly Vindicators 23/7. You guys make it out like they're 700 man alliances that have full HG snake Vindicator fleet with 30 man Guardian chain support.

It is the same with gankers. Many people come to the forums with the view that gankers are some unnatural menace that have unlimited resources, unlimited manpower and the ability to be everywhere at once. Perhaps it is part of human nature to overestimate the strength of an unknown opponent and assume the worst case scenario, but it isn't very useful to immediately paint yourself as the victim and give up on protecting yourself because you think it impossible to win.

This is a competitive PvP game. Gankers and wardeccers are just other players, sometimes just as new and inexperienced as you are or perhaps you feel. There is much you can do fight against wardeccers, even powerful and organized ones, especially if you have numbers, and there are mechanisms built-in to the game for you to get help. And gankers, well, the mechanics of highsec give you all the cards so you can actually be near 100% safe if that is what you want with just some sacrifice of yield, or spending a little effort.

Eve is designed so you are not 100% safe but that is no reason to give up on your own defense because you cannot be perfectly safe. In fact, figuring out how to protect yourself and balancing that with generating your income is the game.


I see goons on those freighter mails. What was that about gankers not having unlimited resources? How many of these glorious content creators have alts (or mains) safely printing ISK in alliance null?
Auduin Ituin
Doomheim
#335 - 2015-02-07 10:37:27 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Auduin Ituin wrote:
Anyway, people seem to really hate and overestimate war dec. rs.. A majority are <10 man corps and don't fly Vindicators 23/7. You guys make it out like they're 700 man alliances that have full HG snake Vindicator fleet with 30 man Guardian chain support.

It is the same with gankers. Many people come to the forums with the view that gankers are some unnatural menace that have unlimited resources, unlimited manpower and the ability to be everywhere at once. Perhaps it is part of human nature to overestimate the strength of an unknown opponent and assume the worst case scenario, but it isn't very useful to immediately paint yourself as the victim and give up on protecting yourself because you think it impossible to win.

This is a competitive PvP game. Gankers and wardeccers are just other players, sometimes just as new and inexperienced as you are or perhaps you feel. There is much you can do fight against wardeccers, even powerful and organized ones, especially if you have numbers, and there are mechanisms built-in to the game for you to get help. And gankers, well, the mechanics of highsec give you all the cards so you can actually be near 100% safe if that is what you want with just some sacrifice of yield, or spending a little effort.

Eve is designed so you are not 100% safe but that is no reason to give up on your own defense because you cannot be perfectly safe. In fact, figuring out how to protect yourself and balancing that with generating your income is the game.


I see goons on those freighter mails. What was that about gankers not having unlimited resources? How many of these glorious content creators have alts (or mains) safely printing ISK in alliance null?
And goons make up all gankers and there are 0 noobs in GSF, right?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#336 - 2015-02-07 12:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I see goons on those freighter mails.
Of course you do, ruining peoples day is what Goons do and they do it well.
Quote:
What was that about gankers not having unlimited resources?
For the most part they don't, Goons are the exception not the norm, be thankful.
Quote:
How many of these glorious content creators have alts (or mains) safely printing ISK in alliance null?
So what if they do? Some hisec players have nullsec alts for isk generation, just as some nullsec players have hisec alts for isk generation, the same options are available to everybody.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#337 - 2015-02-07 14:39:53 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

You having an issue with people making risk free ISK. I have an issue with people farming risk free kills, which I believe hold a lot more intrinsic value than video game money.


And unfortunately for you, EVE is a PvP game. There are no "risk free kills", by the way. Last time I checked, every new account starts with gun skills trained.

The only people who are defenseless in EVE are people who deliberately made the choice to be so. That should have consequences, and I try to help make sure that it does.

Quote:

And you only have an issue with people making risk free ISK in highsec, when that option is just as available to nullsec blocs controlling large sections of the map.


That's not true at all, I wholeheartedly support cloaking against people farming in nullsec too, and I have done a fair bit of it myself.

But then I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about, just trying to advance your carebear talking points.

Quote:

Getting a 99% green killboard while you and your friends sit on a hub undock every day should not be a thing.


Then go play Star Trek Online, with the rest of the people who want a functionally single player game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2015-02-07 15:38:00 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Yes....but it carries criminal consequences. It is tantamount to real life crime, and provides victims with police protection. That should be how nonconsensual pvp works...not forcing folks into often warfare without concord help.


Concord isnt there to protect, its there to punish. They arent like the police, at all. Police will actually step in to prevent a crime from happening. Concord only comes after the crime has occurred.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2015-02-07 15:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Solonius Rex
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


If only there was a chat channel for exactly that purpose...


He clearly doesnt understand the concept of a merc corp. He keeps saying he nweds ties with elite PVP corps in order to hire them to protect him, as if the only people who can hire merc corps are people who know the CEO of those corps in real life and are BFF with them or something.

Has he not seen the dozen or so ads on C&P alone, of Merc corps offering their services? Does he think that these threads are simply Merc corps advertising between their friends, and that utter strangers cant hire them or something?


That straw man again. He's a nimble fellow.

Let me define "ties" as an in-game relationship, occasional blue status, on/off cooperation, knowledge of tactics, organization, and geography. I'd venture to say that the mercenary / ganker / belligerent undesirables community are a fairly tight knit group that aren't inclined to shoot at each other very much because well, shooting people who can shoot back effectively is hard. Shooting people who only return fire via hilarious evemails is much better.


Thats just stupid, to say that all Merc corps are friends with each other and never go against each other, as if they werent in direct competition with each other. Oh, and in the war with marmite and Code, Break a wish foundation directly intervened and destroyed 2 billion worth of Marmite ships, so that alone disproves your claim.

No straw man here, only the utterly misinformed claims coming from you.


Quote:

And the wardec happy members of that community make a practice of warring against people who don't read the forums, don't know what C & P is, can't afford 250M a week or whatever it is to hire marmite, heck they can't even figure out that battleship sized guns are a bad choice against assault frigates.


Again, if you cant afford a mere 250 M to protect your corp, you shouldnt be a CEO. Ignorance is not a defence for being a poorly prepared, poorly trained CEO.

Quote:
And if by god you do end up in a war against a group that manages to present an effective opposition, you can just avoid them and turn your attention to one of your 30 other ongoing wars. And if the aforementioned effective opposition wants to come to the trade hub undock and duke it out with a half dozen logi supported vindicators, good luck to them.


Sure. Which means that you, as an industrial corp, effectively won the war, as the wardeccer wont bother with you anymore.

I fail to see how this is a bad thing for the industrial corp? If the wardeccers avoid you, you've won! Theyre not bothering you anymore. How is this not good for the corp? How is this not what the Industrial corp wanted, in the first place?


But i still fail to see where the straw man argument was.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2015-02-07 15:56:52 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Isnt a gank, forcing people into PVP?


Not really as much as some people consider that pvp (whether its because it makes them feel like they are achieving something) its nothing more than player killing


PVP stands for Player versus Player. I.e. if you have any player interaction with another player in direct competition, be it mining, or killing, it falls under the definition of PVP. Only things without any competition between players, i.e. sitting in station spinning your ship for an hour, would not be PVP.