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Fix for Ishtars online
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2015-02-05 15:32:50 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Oh no dear, that is not what I meant.

Nobody is stopping anyone from putting sentrie drones in the dronebay of yours. What I meant was that the Eos gives a nice bonus for heavy drone kiting.
With just one drone navigation computer and command ships V, heavy drones will chase interceptors of the field or inst-pop them.

It's just I didn't see anyone use the ship bonus instead of doing the same thing most of the rest of EVE is doing at the moment.

That's because the Ishtar is better at being the Ishtar. I don't mean to say the Eos is a perfect replacement for the Ishtar. It's just the best substitute. The Ishtar's heavy drone bonus already goes unused for reasons like heavy drones' inability to apply damage through forcefields.

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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-02-05 15:49:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

Nope they don't. There are quite a few battleships that strongly disagree with a sentry nerf. They wouldn't even mind a drone control range increase.

Carrier blobs and massed domi fleets would not agree with you. At the very least the sentries need to go from sub battlrships, the ishtar itself requires no nerfs as it is the sentries that break it.

I wonder what you'd have to say if CCP were to move to nerf large Railguns, or the Megathron hull.....
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#143 - 2015-02-05 15:50:47 UTC
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Raeding up on the circadian seekers stuff I saw people mention that their drones were going idle whilst in combat and assigned on a target. There may be new modules on the way that will affect drones I think...



(Insert scientific name dealing with radio communication disruption) scrambling burst. Hi slot utility module. When activated has a chance of making drones lose their wireless connection to the controlling ship.

Host would need to initiate a reconnect to lost drones which would then go through a recalibration period and reconnect to host ship after an arbitrary amount of time.

Work out the details to make it balanced.



So your fix idea is to make me give up a high slot on my ship because the ishtar is borked?

I'll help you with the details to balance your idea. NO
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2015-02-05 15:54:41 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Raeding up on the circadian seekers stuff I saw people mention that their drones were going idle whilst in combat and assigned on a target. There may be new modules on the way that will affect drones I think...

(Insert scientific name dealing with radio communication disruption) scrambling burst. Hi slot utility module. When activated has a chance of making drones lose their wireless connection to the controlling ship.

Host would need to initiate a reconnect to lost drones which would then go through a recalibration period and reconnect to host ship after an arbitrary amount of time.

Work out the details to make it balanced.

So your fix idea is to make me give up a high slot on my ship because the ishtar is borked?

I'll help you with the details to balance your idea. NO

Or you could, ya know, try out other ships to counter the Ishtar instead of the current doctrine....
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2015-02-05 15:59:34 UTC
Sentries need things like ammo and reload times. They should be treated as individual ships with guns.

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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#146 - 2015-02-05 16:36:45 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Phaade wrote:
No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.

There are ships far, far more broken than what you claim the Ishtar to be. Most of them, however, are broken in the other direction. The Drake, for example, was nerfed so badly because of whiners like you that no one uses it anymore. Do us all a favor and post your lossmails so we can see why you're so hurt over the Ishtar.


LOL.

You are illustrating my point beautifully.

The old Drake was utterly overpowered. Why do you think 80% of the BC's in space were Drakes? Why were 3% of the BC's in space Prophecy's before teiricide? Balance man. It's Really, really simple. The drake is not un-useable, it's simply more in line with the others. Heavy missiles were what's broken anyway. HAM drakes are still good, though predictable.


And to Aiyshimin the fanboy (or woman, because you behave like a woman), there are literally hundreds of posts explaining exactly why the Ishtar is overpowered. I do not need to regurgitate information. So far I have not heard a single reasonable counter argument.

I also have first hand experience. Judging by your killboard you do not. Do not offer your opinion on the matter; it is worthless.

Oh look, Ishtars are OP!!! There's no counter to be found!!!

Enough said.


Lol you continue to prove my point. Did you even read the article? A crap load of bombers wiped an Ishtar blob that wasn't moving.... Yes a bad FC can make Ishtars balanced.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#147 - 2015-02-05 17:08:36 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Raeding up on the circadian seekers stuff I saw people mention that their drones were going idle whilst in combat and assigned on a target. There may be new modules on the way that will affect drones I think...

(Insert scientific name dealing with radio communication disruption) scrambling burst. Hi slot utility module. When activated has a chance of making drones lose their wireless connection to the controlling ship.

Host would need to initiate a reconnect to lost drones which would then go through a recalibration period and reconnect to host ship after an arbitrary amount of time.

Work out the details to make it balanced.

So your fix idea is to make me give up a high slot on my ship because the ishtar is borked?

I'll help you with the details to balance your idea. NO

Or you could, ya know, try out other ships to counter the Ishtar instead of the current doctrine....



I'm getting the vibe that you're a subpar pilot making a living in an OP ship. To preserver you subpar but OP lifestyle you're trying to gimp any opposition by taking a utility high slot away from them.

I think it would be more efficient for you to lobby for an additional ishtar super power.
* 20% reduction in MWD cap penalty per level of gallente frigate.
* role bonus: No stacking penalty for drone damage amplifiers.
* 10% reduction in sig radius per level of gallente industrial.
* 30% increased afterburner speed boost per level of gallente cruiser.

I think all of these options should be considered for the ishtar. Any reasonable player should be able to come up w/ a plausible counter to these addtional traits. To be balanced I would say you should only add 2 of the above instead of all four.

Just take sentries away from cruisers and be done w/ it.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#148 - 2015-02-05 17:18:00 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

Nope they don't. There are quite a few battleships that strongly disagree with a sentry nerf. They wouldn't even mind a drone control range increase.

Carrier blobs and massed domi fleets would not agree with you. At the very least the sentries need to go from sub battlrships, the ishtar itself requires no nerfs as it is the sentries that break it.

I wonder what you'd have to say if CCP were to move to nerf large Railguns, or the Megathron hull.....

I wonder what you'd say if CCP decided to allow eagles to fit large hybrid turrets...
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2015-02-05 17:40:25 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'm getting the vibe that you're a subpar pilot making a living in an OP ship. To preserver you subpar but OP lifestyle you're trying to gimp any opposition by taking a utility high slot away from them.

To be honest, I've never flown an Ishtar in large-scale fleet PVP. I've flown against them however. I'm of the opinion that when a new FOTM comes out, it should be up to the players to attempt to come up with a reasonable counter to the problem before running to mommy and demanding they take someone else's toys away. Surprising, I know.

Phaade wrote:
I wonder what you'd say if CCP decided to allow eagles to fit large hybrid turrets...

I would laugh as nobody would continue to use them. If someone managed to get a decent doctrine to work, I'd enjoy watching the doctrines evolve.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#150 - 2015-02-05 17:57:54 UTC
I think a lot of the folks saying the ishtar is OP have been playing the game long enough to know and understand the difference between FOTM and OP. I'm betting you know the difference too.

Armor Hacs were FOTM not OP.
Pipe bombing is FOTM not OP.

AFK cloaking - valid game mechanic.

Dram of old - OP (current is fine)
current ishtar - OP

Worm - really strong performer w/ many valid counters - NOT OP

Archon sentry fleets - not really OP, but a server crushing crap mechanic
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2015-02-05 18:28:15 UTC
Archon Pantheon fleets: FOTM because they were OP at the time.
Tracking titans and tracking dreads: OP because of game mechanics
Foxcats: FOTM, later countered by new doctrines.

Slippery Pete Tengus: FOTM

Ishtars: FOTM, no counter yet does not make it OP.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#152 - 2015-02-05 19:30:05 UTC
We can argue that back and forth all day and prove nothing to each other. I'll put it this way.

Current Ishtar - @@ssy Assault Cruiser - flown by risk averse tools that prefer to drop drones and flee the scene of combat. It's the only ship in the game that can drop BS damage on the field and leave the scene while still doing BS damage. It's the only HAC that does close range high damage (think ham/blaster/autocannon/pulse) without being close range. It can do all of this while being fast and agile with high resists and a low sig radius.

It has none of the current tradeoffs that any other close range high damage ship does.

I'll agree, it's NOT OP it's BROKEN. I honestly can't believe I'm debating with you. The facts are so clear to so many (read up for hours).

In short (and this is possible) your opinion is just plain wrong. You say no one has found a valid counter yet, well, there are a lot of smart folks playing the game and a lot of them are really really good at fittings and doctrines. You saying no one has found the counter pretty much proves my point and disproves yours.

Yeah, let that sink in..... either all of eve just went prompt stupid OR you are wrong.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2015-02-05 20:56:30 UTC
It is also possible that you are wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that I don't run to mommy to get them to ban every FOTM until a reasonable amount of time has passed of people trying to find a counter.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#154 - 2015-02-05 22:17:56 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
It is also possible that you are wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that I don't run to mommy to get them to ban every FOTM until a reasonable amount of time has passed of people trying to find a counter.


I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but EVE changes ten times per year now. And you should know by now that alpha is always preferred by blobbs.

Some of you might remember that a big fleet back in 2005 was maybe 100 rail Megathrons vs 100 tachyon Apocalypses.

Fast forward in time and you bring a 100 Ishtar gang alphaing carriers of the field regardless of piloting, positioning or target calling while Ishtar pilots farm keyboards and play diablo while that one ceptor pilot selects the next victim or 5000 very angry looking sentry-guns start to look at you funny.

People will always choose the least amount of effort for 'good measure' on their keyboards.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Lucky Ball
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2015-02-05 22:26:58 UTC
Just a thought.

It seems the main issues here are Ishtars using sentries, considered by some to be BS weapons, or at least pushing BS damage out from extended range. The counter is that heavy drones often lack utility, especially at range, so removing sentries would negate the Ishtar in many situations.

So, a compromise maybe.

1. Remove sentries from Ishtar, by reclassifying them to their own group.
2. Make current sentry drones into Heavy Sentry Drones, with same stats.
3. Add in Medium Sentry Drones, playing with stats to taste and balance for range and damage.

Ishtar would keep a ranged damage option, though damage would be reduced closer to current long range cruiser fire. Would also retain high damage heavy drone, with the existent issues on their deployment.

Granted there are doubtless balance and implementation issues, but such can be worked through., and it does add some content.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2015-02-05 22:59:13 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
It is also possible that you are wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that I don't run to mommy to get them to ban every FOTM until a reasonable amount of time has passed of people trying to find a counter.


I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but EVE changes ten times per year now. And you should know by now that alpha is always preferred by blobbs.
Some of you might remember that a big fleet back in 2005 was maybe 100 rail Megathrons vs 100 tachyon Apocalypses.
Fast forward in time and you bring a 100 Ishtar gang alphaing carriers of the field regardless of piloting, positioning or target calling while Ishtar pilots farm keyboards and play diablo while that one ceptor pilot selects the next victim or 5000 very angry looking sentry-guns start to look at you funny.

People will always choose the least amount of effort for 'good measure' on their keyboards.


It's not so much "least amount of effort" at times as it's "least intelligence-intensive". TMC had a wonderful article regarding the Baltec fleet and how it came about. *showers to remove grime from mentioning TMC*

I agree that 100 Ishtars, each doing about 4k damage, should not be able to remove 1m+ ehp carriers in one cycle. CCP added a limit to drone control amount, and that put a massive hamper on sentry fleets so you don't have 500 carriers and a single Loki.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#157 - 2015-02-05 23:29:41 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
It is also possible that you are wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that I don't run to mommy to get them to ban every FOTM until a reasonable amount of time has passed of people trying to find a counter.


The counter requires very particular fleet setups and incredible amounts of coordination, planning and execution.

The Ishtar's just have to be Ishtar's.

This is not balance. Unbelievable how proponents of Ishtars don't see this. Self serving agendas and all that.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2015-02-06 00:04:59 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
It is also possible that you are wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that I don't run to mommy to get them to ban every FOTM until a reasonable amount of time has passed of people trying to find a counter.


The counter requires very particular fleet setups and incredible amounts of coordination, planning and execution.
The Ishtar's just have to be Ishtar's.
This is not balance. Unbelievable how proponents of Ishtars don't see this. Self serving agendas and all that.


I've never flown fleet doctrine Ishtars myself, so there's no "self serving agendas" here. If you wanna see self-serving agendas, look at the CSM.

The counter requires nothing more than any turret fleet and an intelligent application of bubbles and interceptor webs.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2015-02-06 01:31:35 UTC
It's ineffective to regulate sentries by any means other than a massive damage nerf with equally massive sentry damage bonuses to specific hulls.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2015-02-06 01:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Rain6637 wrote:
It's ineffective to regulate sentries by any means other than a massive damage nerf with equally massive sentry damage bonuses to specific hulls.


Since the issues with sentries are mainly clustered around the ships that would almost certainly get the sentry bonuses anyway, this seems rather similar to "Need to nerf sentries on the Ishar/Domi" chant with a side order of "**** all the other ships that use sentries that people are not all pissy about too"

Edit: I certainly agree the Ishtar/Domi/NVI + sentries combo needs to be scaled back some, but there's a lot of other ships that get a bit of side usage out of sentries that I don't really seen to have their functionality reduced.