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Being griefed by other industry players.

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Devil's Call
Social safety
#121 - 2011-12-20 17:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Devil's Call
So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.
isk4trade
Cogitation Mining and Industrial Trading
#122 - 2011-12-20 17:24:24 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
You know, if by any far fetched change you, the OP are not a troll, you are better off doing level 4 missions in high sec and salvage & loot the wrecks.

It nets you more money in less time, which gives you isk to buy minerals . It gives you way more valuable minerals once you process the loot. And to top it off, you get more in less time while, being less vulnerable to being ganked by some loony tune who got bored.



TL;DR: Level 4 mission = minerals/ lowsec/ 0.0 minerals, isk, more safety, speed, LP, Standing.

You should be stupid if you mine.



... and if everyone follows your advice ... from WHOM are you going to BUY those minerals and at what COST ?

me
Lexmana
#123 - 2011-12-20 17:29:58 UTC
ISK is free too. True story.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2011-12-20 17:34:28 UTC
Devil's Call wrote:
So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.


And do you consider isk/hr non-sense an good use of time ? no fun, just watching wallet blink.
Varr Dorn
Blue Flame Ore Excavations
#125 - 2011-12-20 17:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Varr Dorn
Devil's Call wrote:
So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.

In the following post I use 'you' in the general sense, not directed solely at the quoted poster.

Example: Orca cost 10 tritanium to build. You sell the OP 10 tritanium for 10 isk. You suddenly decide you need an Orca and buy it from the OP for 9 isk. Now the OP has 9 isk and you have 1 isk. Who wins?P

I also noticed a few people with an example more like this:
The ore to build a battleship takes, lets say, 100,000 isk. To actually build it costs 120,000 total. Going price for the battleship is 200,000 but the OP decides to sell for 150, making a net profit of 30,000. According to some posters, the OP lost 50,000. The only problem with that statement is that it assumes that 50,000 existed. Because if the OP can undercut you, then the OP got that customer and you didn't. The customer made isk and you didn't. And any profit is better than 0.

Also,Perceived Value

Tl:dr : Anyone that plays this game should be playing for fun, if you forget that, then what's the point? Playing at marketing can be fun, but some of you seem to be taking it entirely too seriously.
Varr Dorn
Blue Flame Ore Excavations
#126 - 2011-12-20 17:48:29 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
Diana Dour wrote:
It's bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots on the outside


No. Its bad enough that the industry community has to deal with idiots like you.

Here's some friendly advice, just sell the ores/minerals that you mine, you'll make more money, and save some time.

Leave the real industrial stuff to the clever people (read as: people who can do basic arithmetic)

kthxbai



You might want to check your zipper, your hubris is showingShocked
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#127 - 2011-12-20 18:03:13 UTC
Varr Dorn wrote:
I also noticed a few people with an example more like this:
The ore to build a battleship takes, lets say, 100,000 isk. To actually build it costs 120,000 total. Going price for the battleship is 200,000 but the OP decides to sell for 150, making a net profit of 30,000. According to some posters, the OP lost 50,000. The only problem with that statement is that it assumes that 50,000 existed. Because if the OP can undercut you, then the OP got that customer and you didn't. The customer made isk and you didn't. And any profit is better than 0.
…but the problem is that this isn't what the OP is doing — if he did, there might be some sense in it, if he can make up for the lost margin by volume of sales and the fact that his lower price will ensure he gets every sale.

What the OP is doing is selling that battleship for 80,000 ISK. By undercutting the material value of the ship he did indeed lose 20,000 ISK (because the rocks used are not actually free for him) — it's the customer who gets 20k ISK worth of minerals for free, not the OP. At that point, the OP might as well not bother with the market and just self-destruct the ships for insurance instead.
Devil's Call
Social safety
#128 - 2011-12-20 18:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Devil's Call
Varr Dorn wrote:
Devil's Call wrote:
So say an Orca costs 10 tritanium to build, and 10 tritanium sells for 10 isk, but you sell your orca for 9 isk, do you consider that a good use of time?

Maybe my example is too complicated to understand, oh well... at least I tried.

In the following post I use 'you' in the general sense, not directed solely at the quoted poster.

Example: Orca cost 10 tritanium to build. You sell the OP 10 tritanium for 10 isk. You suddenly decide you need an Orca and buy it from the OP for 9 isk. Now the OP has 9 isk and you have 1 isk. Who wins?P


I hope you understand that only the buyer wins, as the seller could've made 10isk without even building an orca.

If other industrialists sell orca's for 12 isk and the OP sells them for 11, sure he makes a profit and if he thinks that that's a fun/useful way to spend his time, then by all means. But in my original example, he's loosing isk.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2011-12-20 18:14:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Varr Dorn wrote:
I also noticed a few people with an example more like this:
The ore to build a battleship takes, lets say, 100,000 isk. To actually build it costs 120,000 total. Going price for the battleship is 200,000 but the OP decides to sell for 150, making a net profit of 30,000. According to some posters, the OP lost 50,000. The only problem with that statement is that it assumes that 50,000 existed. Because if the OP can undercut you, then the OP got that customer and you didn't. The customer made isk and you didn't. And any profit is better than 0.
…but the problem is that this isn't what the OP is doing — if he did, there might be some sense in it, if he can make up for the lost margin by volume of sales and the fact that his lower price will ensure he gets every sale.

What the OP is doing is selling that battleship for 80,000 ISK. By undercutting the material value of the ship he did indeed lose 20,000 ISK (because the rocks used are not actually free for him) — it's the customer who gets 20k ISK worth of minerals for free, not the OP. At that point, the OP might as well not bother with the market and just self-destruct the ships for insurance instead.


Well and what if, i loot missions, reprocess all modules except arbalest heavy missile launchers and built an hyperion and give it for free to someone who just want to try it ?

I effectively lost some ISK, which are just some currency but i feel good about such deed and therefore i am the one who made "profit" on entirely different yet still imaginary level.
Devil's Call
Social safety
#130 - 2011-12-20 18:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Devil's Call
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Varr Dorn wrote:
I also noticed a few people with an example more like this:
The ore to build a battleship takes, lets say, 100,000 isk. To actually build it costs 120,000 total. Going price for the battleship is 200,000 but the OP decides to sell for 150, making a net profit of 30,000. According to some posters, the OP lost 50,000. The only problem with that statement is that it assumes that 50,000 existed. Because if the OP can undercut you, then the OP got that customer and you didn't. The customer made isk and you didn't. And any profit is better than 0.
…but the problem is that this isn't what the OP is doing — if he did, there might be some sense in it, if he can make up for the lost margin by volume of sales and the fact that his lower price will ensure he gets every sale.

What the OP is doing is selling that battleship for 80,000 ISK. By undercutting the material value of the ship he did indeed lose 20,000 ISK (because the rocks used are not actually free for him) — it's the customer who gets 20k ISK worth of minerals for free, not the OP. At that point, the OP might as well not bother with the market and just self-destruct the ships for insurance instead.


Well and what if, i loot missions, reprocess all modules except arbalest heavy missile launchers and built an hyperion and give it for free to someone who just want to try it ?

I effectively lost some ISK, which are just some currency but i feel good about such deed and therefore i am the one who made "profit" on entirely different yet still imaginary level.


Hahaha Lol. Sure, you can do that, nobody will stop you man. If it makes you feel good, then do it! But don't expect ISKaholics to understand you, also people with common sence will tell you that you're throwing away ISK, but if that makes you feel good... haha.

Edit: Problem oilcompany's?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#131 - 2011-12-20 18:21:23 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Well and what if, i loot missions, reprocess all modules except arbalest heavy missile launchers and built an hyperion and give it for free to someone who just want to try it ?

I effectively lost some ISK, which are just some currency but i feel good about such deed and therefore i am the one who made "profit" on entirely different yet still imaginary level.

Then the minerals would still not be free — you just considered the loss of assets acceptable because it brought some interesting side benefits. So it's more akin to paying the nasty pirate a ransom (assuming he honours that deal…).
Minta Contha
Emergent Entity
#132 - 2011-12-20 18:29:44 UTC
I can see where the OP is coming from, though I don't necessarily agree with all they say.
There is joy to be had in Eve from other things than making money - if ISK is all that matters, then why do people get podded? If you pod someone you lose ISK from the cost of ammo expended.
There is opportunity cost to be sure, but there is also such a concept as value of convenience. If you hate missioning, then you will pass over what might be the most efficient ISK per hour option in favour of an activity you enjoy more. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN.
Plus there is a lot of entertainment in undercutting the market just for the hell of it. I once had the majority of isogen on sale in a well known Metropolis system and I slashed the price to outrageously cheap, just to see what would happen. It was fascinating to watch the market prices dive after mine.
If you disagree wth people's economic decisions, just let them get on with it. Selling for less than max profit actually helps keep inflation down. As long as they are having fun and can afford the ships they want to fly and the modules they want to fit, who cares?

My cooking is like my lovemaking - fast, greasy, and unsatisfying.
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2011-12-20 18:33:35 UTC
the minerals you mine are only free if you consider your time worthless

if for example in the time it took you to mine 1 million worth of minerals you could have made 3 million from missions then you wasted money.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#134 - 2011-12-20 18:39:11 UTC
As long as the OP is having fun, he's playing the game right. That's what games are for.

If he manages to spoil somebody else's fun while having fun himself, he's playing EvE right, as the devs envision it.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#135 - 2011-12-20 18:43:43 UTC
OK so all you 'oppurtinity cost' addicts in this thread.

Oppurtunity Cost is a way to assess potential income.

Note POTENTIAL, should someone choose not to fulfill this potential that is up to them.

Reasons why they might not choose to fulfill this potential are. 'They enjoy the process of making things' or perhaps ' They get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing someone got a ship cheaply and they have made somone else happy'

So now we have introduced another factor into our equation, for the sake of arguement we will call this 'Emotional potential'

where

Selling my stuff at a price I'm happy with (positive emotional potential) > trawling market daily to check prices for everything I sell putting hours on my weeks workload doing something I detest ( negative emotional potential )

Now this is the part some of you are going to find shocking.

Emotinal potential > Earning potential

Even in real life IMO

To think it's otherwise in a ficitonal game makes me concerned for your emotianal and mental stabilty frankly.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#136 - 2011-12-20 19:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
In a sandbox game, you do what is fun. In essence your character cannot do those activities which you do not enjoy.
Tell that to anyone who has ever grinded to fund their PvP.

We've wandered right over into the asinine.


Professor Alphane wrote:
Stuff
I don't recall seeing anyone in the thread saying anything which contradicts what you just said.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#137 - 2011-12-20 19:31:38 UTC
OP, do what you gotta. I used to be amazed at people like you, but I just sell around them.

Everyone who claims other people are wasting opportunity costs, but aren't trllionaire traders are pretty much asshats TBH. Whatever they are doing makes less money than that.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2011-12-20 19:36:14 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?


Or do you just really enjoy baking?


Right! They may really enjoy baking. But, the initial reasons why they do such always indicate they're looking for "PROFIT". The assumption is the stuff they mine, the stuff they salvage, the stuff they loot is "FREE" to them. It's not. The concept is completely foreign to them. If they weren't looking for a profit they wouldn't be telling me about all the "FREE" stuff they use to build whatever it is they're building.

Take T3 production. Most subsystems and hulls have profit in their construction. Some subsystem categories are right out in the red, no profit to be made. But, if you factor in failure rates for reverse engineering and the uncertainty of producing a desirable subsystem it's all in the red. Of course, that was all the last time I looked at it which has been a couple of months. But, people were still selling those subs and hulls for less than their component value.

Ranger 1 - comments noted and agreed.

Don't ban me, bro!
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#139 - 2011-12-20 19:46:37 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Everyone who claims other people are wasting opportunity costs, but aren't trllionaire traders are pretty much asshats TBH. Whatever they are doing makes less money than that.
Why are people 'asshats' for pointing out facts?

Also, there is a big difference betwen calculating the oppotunity cost of everything you could conceivably do in EVE, and realising that you can sell minerals on the market.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#140 - 2011-12-20 19:51:24 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Everyone who claims other people are wasting opportunity costs, but aren't trllionaire traders are pretty much asshats TBH. Whatever they are doing makes less money than that.
Why are people 'asshats' for pointing out facts?

Also, there is a big difference betwen calculating the oppotunity cost of everything you could conceivably do in EVE, and realising that you can sell minerals on the market.


Its a pretty simple concept actually, if you chastise someone for doing something you are doing you are an asshat.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it