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CEP Response to Federation Election, Roden manifesto ?
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2015-02-03 06:33:48 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
You realize that the DMZ Treaty was signed two years ago yes? What was done at the time merely established a legal framework, the full structure of which will continue to be expanded or renovated over time by the people who live in each administrative district as they see fit. I can assure you that nowhere in the Gallente Federation do our laws remain static.

In other words, proving that the laws were a certain way does not prove that they are still.


Don't be too hard on him, Rina. Tom Horn used to be quite the diehard Provist back in the days where it was more fashionable to wear those colours. Two years out of date is pretty modern for an ex-provist. He's moved with the times far better than Kim-haani.

I did think he'd have noticed that we run all of the major urban centers now, though.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-02-03 12:27:52 UTC
As a former Lai Dai citizen, I would fully support Alakoni Ishanoya taking a greater role within the CEP and shaping more of State foreign policy.

The involvement of Ishukone is the only thing making the situation on Caldari Prime remotely tolerable, but I believe they have squandered the opportunity to end this affront to our historical and cultural heritage, and more power should be ceded to the Patriot bloc.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#23 - 2015-02-03 15:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
Quote:
No your wrong Vero. All inhabitants of the Gallente districts are considered full citizens of the Federation and fall under all laws that previously applied to Caldari Prime prior to Heth invasion. Prior to the Heth invasion Caldari Prime had been occupied and controlled by the Federation for the past 200 years.

Even if the above is not true which it is, we would want to see an end to the Gallente districts.The fact remains that the planet should belong to the Caldari State and only the Caldari, which at the moment it does not.

Your own father believed in an end to Federation occupation and control Vero, every daughter should listen to their father.


This is somewhat wrong, Ishukone protects all Caldari on Caldari Prime if they wish to be, there are a few who have willing become citizens of the Federation, and visa versa, and that was the past Tomhorn-haan, we should not let that rule our train of thought. Any Citizen of either the Federation or the State my approach Ishukene or the Federation equivalent and have this corrected, No Caldari is forced to be a Gallente citizen on Caldari Prime, and to my knowledge, no Gallente is forced to be a Caldari citizen just because they are in the district.

While i wish Caldari Prime was still ours, unfortunately for the foreseeable future, it wont be, there have been Gallente family lines that have been there for over 200 years and before the war, just as there has been Caldari there since the time of the war, the problem is. Think of it this way, imagine it the other way round for one moment, do you think for a second we would give it up given its strategic importance? No.. unfortunately we would not.. I do not believe Gallente should leave Caldari Prime, as it is as much there home now as it was our, our home world or not, but we can live in peace side by side, we would not give it up in history was reversed.. I would prefer to have my homeworld as a becon of hope, prosperity and peace, then a pace of hate, exodus and racial prejudice.. Our people have the chance to make New Eden better, and rather then taking the first step, all we think about is who we must kill, and who we must hate..

And please, do not insult mademoiselle Vero, from what i have seen she is one of the even headed ones, not blinded by hatred and pride as much as us Caldari are, most of us look at this as a chance to kill the Federation, to take back what they "stole", and then what? do you honestly beleive that would be the end and there would be peace? cause there would not.. This is a chance at peace.. And we are squandering it..

Just imagine the whole situation reversed, you might gain a new perspective.

All for the good of many.


Drakenovic-haan, with the greatest of respect you sound like a man who has resigned himself to accept the occupation. Ive produced a copy of the treaty, im sure you've read it.It clearly states inhabitants of the Gallente districts will be considered full citizens of the Federation. I suggest to you that Caldari citizens living on Caldari Prime are forced to be Gallente citizens.

Like you Drakenovic-hann im a man of peace, i would like to see an end to the conflict between our nations. First process, in the step forward to peace is to end the occupation. Caldari people will not accept occuaption again, and there will be no peace without it.

Heth the so called tyrant, the threat to the Federation is gone, presumed dead by many, still considered a live fugitive by the State. Provists have been dismantled, killed, imprisoned, some have fled, others have been deemed not a threat, or committed no crimes. Organisation is dismantled and no longer a threat.

I give no validity to the strategic importance of Caldari Prime. No Caldari warships are aloud to enter the Luminaire solar system. So their will be no build up of Caldari warships or a remilitarization of Caldari Prime, and as such there will be no threat to any Federation sovereignty within the solar system, if the occupation was to end.

Gallente citizens are the main problem, relocation to other colonies within the Federation would be the best solution. Im sure many would want to leave, if the occuaption ended. Those wishing to stay should be accommodated, realize they are now living in the State.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#24 - 2015-02-03 16:22:15 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
You realize that the DMZ Treaty was signed two years ago yes? What was done at the time merely established a legal framework, the full structure of which will continue to be expanded or renovated over time by the people who live in each administrative district as they see fit. I can assure you that nowhere in the Gallente Federation do our laws remain static.

In other words, proving that the laws were a certain way does not prove that they are still.


Don't be too hard on him, Rina. Tom Horn used to be quite the diehard Provist back in the days where it was more fashionable to wear those colours. Two years out of date is pretty modern for an ex-provist. He's moved with the times far better than Kim-haani.

I did think he'd have noticed that we run all of the major urban centers now, though.


Pieter-haan , you saying there are no longer any Gallente / Caldari districts, DMZ treaty is no longer valid and has been replaced.
No part of Caldari Prime is considered part of the Federation, and is run by Federal law.

Caldari Prime belongs now to the Caldari State and only the Caldari ?

IF this true i definitely missed the memo.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2015-02-03 16:37:11 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
You realize that the DMZ Treaty was signed two years ago yes? What was done at the time merely established a legal framework, the full structure of which will continue to be expanded or renovated over time by the people who live in each administrative district as they see fit. I can assure you that nowhere in the Gallente Federation do our laws remain static.

In other words, proving that the laws were a certain way does not prove that they are still.


Don't be too hard on him, Rina. Tom Horn used to be quite the diehard Provist back in the days where it was more fashionable to wear those colours. Two years out of date is pretty modern for an ex-provist. He's moved with the times far better than Kim-haani.

I did think he'd have noticed that we run all of the major urban centers now, though.


Pieter-haan , you saying there are no longer any Gallente / Caldari districts, DMZ treaty is no longer valid and has been replaced.
No part of Caldari Prime is considered part of the Federation, and is run by Federal law.

Caldari Prime belongs now to the Caldari State and only the Caldari ?

IF this true i definitely missed the memo.


THAT memo hasn't been written yet, Horn-haan, but I really think that patient diplomacy through Ishukone is the right way to see it written. As I said elsewhere, we can always go back to Plan A if it turns out that they haven't been negotiating in good faith.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#26 - 2015-02-03 18:13:01 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
You realize that the DMZ Treaty was signed two years ago yes? What was done at the time merely established a legal framework, the full structure of which will continue to be expanded or renovated over time by the people who live in each administrative district as they see fit. I can assure you that nowhere in the Gallente Federation do our laws remain static.

In other words, proving that the laws were a certain way does not prove that they are still.


Don't be too hard on him, Rina. Tom Horn used to be quite the diehard Provist back in the days where it was more fashionable to wear those colours. Two years out of date is pretty modern for an ex-provist. He's moved with the times far better than Kim-haani.

I did think he'd have noticed that we run all of the major urban centers now, though.


Pieter-haan , you saying there are no longer any Gallente / Caldari districts, DMZ treaty is no longer valid and has been replaced.
No part of Caldari Prime is considered part of the Federation, and is run by Federal law.

Caldari Prime belongs now to the Caldari State and only the Caldari ?

IF this true i definitely missed the memo.


Of course there are still separate Administrative Districts, and there will continue to be. Many of these places existed before the First Gallente-Caldari War. Some of those were settled before the Federation existed, back in the days when our people worked together to reach for the stars, instead of killing each other over dirt.

We spent 600 years living together on Caldari Prime before the Caldari State or the Federation ever existed. Your ancestors welcomed Gallente colonists to live on their planet, even if they lived apart and at arms length. Perhaps they were more wise in their tolerance than you are in your avarice for exclusivity.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#27 - 2015-02-03 18:16:50 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Quote:
Care to provide any evidence of that claim that the governing laws of Gallente Districts are the same as before the Invasion? I've never seen anything to suggest such a state of affairs.


Only changes, im aware of regarding the treaty below is the handing over of the city of Arcurio to Ishukone control Vero.

Final details of Caldari Prime DMZ

Caldari Prime will be divided into a number of districts that shall be split between Gallente and Caldari administration, while Mordu's Legion will provide security for the planet. After final negotiations, roughly fifty-four percent of the districts will fall under the Caldari jurisdiction of the Ishukone Corporation, while forty-six percent will be Gallente districts administered by Material Acquisition. The districts are purely administrative; they shall not be segregated by ethnicity.

The treaty has been signed into law by the Senate, President Jacus Roden, and the Chief Executive Panel. Inhabitants of the Gallente districts will be considered full citizens of the Federation and fall under all laws that previously applied to Caldari Prime prior to the Caldari invasion. The Caldari districts are under a more convoluted system, with individuals retaining corporate citizenship with their current megacorporate employers, though Ishukone will collect administrative taxes and apply their corporate law for civilian activities.

According to the terms of the treaty, Caldari Prime's two largest cities, Arcurio and Tovil, shall be split between the two sides. Tovil will fall under Caldari administration, while Arcurio has been placed within a Gallente district.



You realize that the DMZ Treaty was signed two years ago yes? What was done at the time merely established a legal framework, the full structure of which will continue to be expanded or renovated over time by the people who live in each administrative district as they see fit. I can assure you that nowhere in the Gallente Federation do our laws remain static.

In other words, proving that the laws were a certain way does not prove that they are still.


With respect Vero DMZ Treaty was signed by your goverment and the State, time has no bearing on the treaty. People living in the districts cannot just change the treaty. Its legal document signed by your goverment and the CEP. If your goverment and the CEP agreed to amend the treaty, i agree amendents could be made, new treaty legal document would be formed signed by both parties.

When the senate introduces new laws into the Federation, i agree that these new laws are implemented into the Gallente districts. Gallente districts are part of the Federation.

Anyway Vero this is what im referring to , when i say Federation occupation.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2015-02-03 19:02:19 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

We spent 600 years living together on Caldari Prime before the Caldari State or the Federation ever existed. Your ancestors welcomed Gallente colonists to live on their planet, even if they lived apart and at arms length. Perhaps they were more wise in their tolerance than you are in your avarice for exclusivity.


To be fair, Rinai, that invitation to share our home was repaid by setting fire to said home, driving us out and then squatting in the ruins.

Both our governments believe that relations will be furthered by making sure there is space between our populations and carefully controlled interaction.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#29 - 2015-02-03 19:32:16 UTC
And likewise in fairness, following up an invitation by bombing your neighbors tends to upset them. Of course, by then the Gallente inhabitants were in a much different situation. Really, though, I've no desire to rehash the same old rhetorical territory we've skirmished over so often before.

My earlier point really expands to this: there is plenty of precedent for negotiated coexistence of both our peoples on Caldari Prime. I think we both agree on that, but anyone who seeks the expulsion of every Gallente from Caldari Prime is in for a fight.
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-02-03 23:42:49 UTC
Quote:
Drakenovic-haan, with the greatest of respect you sound like a man who has resigned himself to accept the occupation. Ive produced a copy of the treaty, im sure you've read it.It clearly states inhabitants of the Gallente districts will be considered full citizens of the Federation. I suggest to you that Caldari citizens living on Caldari Prime are forced to be Gallente citizens.

Like you Drakenovic-hann im a man of peace, i would like to see an end to the conflict between our nations. First process, in the step forward to peace is to end the occupation. Caldari people will not accept occuaption again, and there will be no peace without it.

Heth the so called tyrant, the threat to the Federation is gone, presumed dead by many, still considered a live fugitive by the State. Provists have been dismantled, killed, imprisoned, some have fled, others have been deemed not a threat, or committed no crimes. Organisation is dismantled and no longer a threat.

I give no validity to the strategic importance of Caldari Prime. No Caldari warships are aloud to enter the Luminaire solar system. So their will be no build up of Caldari warships or a remilitarization of Caldari Prime, and as such there will be no threat to any Federation sovereignty within the solar system, if the occupation was to end.

Gallente citizens are the main problem, relocation to other colonies within the Federation would be the best solution. Im sure many would want to leave, if the occuaption ended. Those wishing to stay should be accommodated, realize they are now living in the State.


Horn-haan, do that think that because i believe in peace i am okay with what is happened, and obviously you are unaware of my standing on these matters, I will inform you shortly.

There is a difference between occupation and living side by side, I will not tolerate occupation of our home, i will destroy any who try to occupy it again, but occupation is the action, state, or period of occupying or being occupied by military force, by this definition we are not occupied, we have more in fact then the Gallente citizens do by the grace of Ishukone and its diplomatic agreements, the only military on the planet is Mordu's Legion, which was hired for both parties as a middle ground, and to defend it from one of our great powers from getting impatient and ruining what Ishukone has managed to gain, given time we ca get more, but i will not have all Gallente removed from our home, for it is there home now, though i do believe it should be under Caldari owner ship, but unfortunately we do not have a centre to power as it would be, so out of all the Mega Corps Ishukone is the only one suited to this task until such a time as the hate and pride of the other Corporations comes down from its boiling point, as we do not want some gun ho Caldari with pride in his heart to take offence at something and start another war because the Gallente asked to trade with a district or something. Caldari Prime, our home, should be shared, it should be a place of peace and prosperity, but it should be in the hands of Caldari, maybe a council of sorts with a representative of each Mega Corporation, i do not know, i am not politically minded enough the grasp the finer details..

You have stated that we the Caldari would not remilitarise our home world, while i wish this was true it simply can not be, for peace to prosper there should be an agreement about military groups within our solar system, maybe have joint Gallente-Caldari military groups to defend it, to build trust and friendship between our 2 militaries again, i do not know,

I want peace between the Federation and State, we are 2 great peoples, we can do so much good together, but we need to stop loosing lives that need not be lost because we want to continue a war, we need to end it, just as Ishukone is trying with Caldari Prime, they are the only people capable of averting this future we are heading towards, and they are the only ones that want to deal with the Gallente on peaceful terms, for this reason, i will defend any and all Ishukone members from any attack, they are the best thing for our great State at the moment, and they will make sure it is rebuilt on peace and a future we can both fight for together, this is my hope, while it may take a while to come to fruition, it is still on its way there, that is what matters.

All for the good of many Horn-haan, remember this, it doesn't not say "All for the good of Caldari" it says many.. New Eden needs peace, I will give up my immortality to see this happen.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#31 - 2015-02-06 01:29:16 UTC
Drakenovic-haan , we are more or less reading from the same page, except i would define the current situation on home as an occupation. Until like you say "Caldari owner ship" is achieved will it be over.

There must be a red line that cannot be crossed, the occupation, the Gallente districts, must come to an end after after 3years. Otherwise the occuaption will drag on, a decade will go by, then two decades, 50 years, 100 years, then 200 years of occuaption again, if we do not draw a red line that cannot be crossed. Ishukone have just over 1 year left, to bring an end to the Gallente districts, end the occupation, and achieve Caldari owner ship for the homeworld.

If Ishukone are unable to attain this, then they should be removed as the administrators by the CEP, and a new policy should be adopted, one that we know works gunboat. Next time we get the tripwire down, we go in, make them an offer they cant refuse.

When a new treaty is signed and Caldari owner ship is achieved, propose peace talks for the war zone. Lets include the ILF to the peace table, make them three way peace talks. Intaki colonies were placed into the war zone, and have suffered the ravages of war, just the same as the Caldari and the Federation. When we draw the lines on the map for the Caldari State and the Federation, lets also draw the lines for an independent Intaki nation, which wishes, not to be apart of the Federation or the State but friend and neighbour to both and live in peace.

Ill be writing to the CEO's of Lai Dai, Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, regarding the homeworld and a red line that should not be crossed.

On a totaly different note Drakenovic-haan, in 2 or 3months i may have something you might be interested in. if it comes to fruition ill be in touch, and you can decide if you want to get involved. Until then.. Glory to the State ! Drakenovic-haan ,
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-02-06 05:15:15 UTC
Here we all stand, shouting over one another, arguing semantics. Debating the meaning of words like "occupation" and "compromise."

Meanwhile our homeworld still bears the scars of the conflict that took place years ago. Have any of you visited Caldari Prime recently? The crash site of the Shiigeru is still a disaster area, visible from space. A horrific scar across the cheek of a once-beautiful world, now torn and smashed in xenophobic rage from both sides.

If there is to be action taken, let it be the benevolent act of restoring Caldari Prime. If you desire peace, then lend your strength to the rebuilding of what took millennia to build and only a fraction of that to destroy. If you desire domination, then earn it by gaining the faith of those living there. As an old saying goes, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#33 - 2015-02-25 03:51:59 UTC
Preparations begin for Presidential Inauguration http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/preparations-begin-for-presidential-inauguration/

President Roden is believed to be in Villore now, and will remain there until after the inauguration on thursday. Im sure many Caldari will be watching, to see what President Roden has to say at the inauguration.

We hope that the policy to return Gallente districts on Caldari Prime, back to State control will continue.
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