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A Patriot's Word to the Federation
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Jeane DuPont
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-02-03 02:08:06 UTC
Nathaniel Kalen wrote:

Ms. Vess. I care for my own State and people, not others. Federation should be brought into justice, and it will happen sooner or later. But that doesn't mean it should be destroyed.

I don't like the very idea of a total war, but you must understand that Gallenteans' arrogance make that very possible to happen. And it will cost too much to all our nations.


Mr. Kalen.... your message to the people was going well, until you felt in the same ordinary error most people fall into when analysing conflicts and wars. The ordinary error called "judgement of value".
When you state Federation should be brought into justice, there is a whole lot of judgement of value commited by your part. Whose justice and under which laws? Bureaucratic laws? Corporativist laws? Divine laws? Shocked
You state it will happen sooner or later... So not only you commit judgements of value but you also admit this will happen because of an intrinsic transgression of "laws". In your mind, you have already sentenced the Federation too.

A judge, and a jury.

Then you speak of Gallenteans' arrogance... Again, more judgements of value now added with generalizations.
I'm a traditional Gallente. My family has always been working for the Federation generation after generation. But that didn't prevented me from doing two things:
1) I've always worked with people from the other nations because I know how to recognize each strenghts and advantages of each one and of every single person. DUPO, despite being a Gallente corporation, has Caldari and Amarr on its rankings filling important roles...
2) I've always been a critic of the size of the states even tho having received a charter of the Federation to operate DUPO on different conditions. In my oppinion the corporativist model such as Caldari's is the most adaptable to different economic chalenges and most favorable to generate economic growth.

So I ask you: where is the Gallentean arrogance in that?
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#22 - 2015-02-03 02:22:41 UTC
The difference between the Provists and the Black Eagles is that the Black Eagles don't control the government, make foreign policy, fight wars or enforce the President's will on Federal citizens. The Black Eagles are accountable to both the President and the Senate, the peoples elected representatives. Heth and his thugs were accountable to no one.

I agree that there need to be ongoing negotiations and concessions by both sides with regards to Caldari Prime. However there can be no doubt that the Federation will never again allow a militarized Caldari Prime to threaten the annihilation of the Luminaire system. That's not negotiable.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2015-02-03 04:26:51 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
The difference between the Provists and the Black Eagles is that the Black Eagles don't control the government, make foreign policy, fight wars or enforce the President's will on Federal citizens. The Black Eagles are accountable to both the President and the Senate, the peoples elected representatives. Heth and his thugs were accountable to no one.

I agree that there need to be ongoing negotiations and concessions by both sides with regards to Caldari Prime. However there can be no doubt that the Federation will never again allow a militarized Caldari Prime to threaten the annihilation of the Luminaire system. That's not negotiable.



The difference between the Black Eagles and the Provists is that we ousted our dictator and disbanded his apparatus of fear and hate. You just granted yours further mandate.

Please - the Black Eagles accountable to the President and the Senate? Don't make me laugh.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-02-03 04:43:29 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
The difference between the Provists and the Black Eagles is that the Black Eagles don't control the government, make foreign policy, fight wars or enforce the President's will on Federal citizens. The Black Eagles are accountable to both the President and the Senate, the peoples elected representatives. Heth and his thugs were accountable to no one.

I agree that there need to be ongoing negotiations and concessions by both sides with regards to Caldari Prime. However there can be no doubt that the Federation will never again allow a militarized Caldari Prime to threaten the annihilation of the Luminaire system. That's not negotiable.



The difference between the Black Eagles and the Provists is that we ousted our dictator and disbanded his apparatus of fear and hate. You just granted yours further mandate.

Please - the Black Eagles accountable to the President and the Senate? Don't make me laugh.


Accountable *only* to the President more like. Got to respect Roden for managing that at least.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-02-03 04:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Excellent written, Mr. Kalen.

FOR THE STATE!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#26 - 2015-02-03 06:42:15 UTC
Really Pilot Tuulinen? You truly think Roden's a dictator who grabbed power illegally? Come on, you know better than that. Roden's no saint by any means but a dictator? No way.

And scoff all you like about the Black Eagles and accountability but, they do report to the President and are overseen by the Senate. They're not rogues running around wild and free doing what ever the hell they want.

It's no mystery why there will likely never be peace between the empires. Way too much animosity, too many old grievances, too much jingoism and nationalism.

As this thread is degenerating rapidly into the same old crap accusations and irrationality I believe I'll take my leave of it.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-02-03 11:29:32 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
This thread does highlight an issue that rarely gets spoken about. Namely that Kim's stance on the Federation isn't an outlier, but has many in the Caldari Militia sharing this view (albeit not as extreme as Kim) In this regard, it isn't wise to simply disregard Kim's viewpoint as that of a lone extremist, but rather as the loud & extreme mouthpiece of a Provist Caldari Militia viewpoint.

This is due to the result of them being molded & guided under Heth's rule, growing up & running their lives under his anti-Federation propaganda. In short, these extreme patriottic/provist capsuleers can be called his heritage.


There is officially no remaining Provist influence or sentiment in the State Protectorate, as detailed in the report submitted by State Protectorate Command to the CEP investigatory committee in August 115. Its a matter of public record.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#28 - 2015-02-03 11:36:13 UTC
Nalena Linova wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
This thread does highlight an issue that rarely gets spoken about. Namely that Kim's stance on the Federation isn't an outlier, but has many in the Caldari Militia sharing this view (albeit not as extreme as Kim) In this regard, it isn't wise to simply disregard Kim's viewpoint as that of a lone extremist, but rather as the loud & extreme mouthpiece of a Provist Caldari Militia viewpoint.

This is due to the result of them being molded & guided under Heth's rule, growing up & running their lives under his anti-Federation propaganda. In short, these extreme patriottic/provist capsuleers can be called his heritage.


There is officially no remaining Provist influence or sentiment in the State Protectorate, as detailed in the report submitted by State Protectorate Command to the CEP investigatory committee in August 115. Its a matter of public record.


I believe miss Ymladris was talking about the feelings of many of the rank and file, miss Linova, not the official stance of the organization (Which would have to be somewhat politically dense to maintain open provist sympathies).

In that regard, you yourself affirmed that belief a few weeks ago.

Nalena Linova wrote:
I would like to clarify what seems to be a misconception held by the media and public:

Commander Kim is by no means a pariah among the members of the State Protectorate. While the views expressed in her private life do not necessarily represent the official position of the State Protectorate, she does enjoy a lot of support from individuals within its ranks.

I accept that her views may no longer be compatible with those of wider Caldari society, but the men and women enlisted in the State Protectorate are largely patriotic in their political leanings, for obvious reasons, and have little love for the Gallente or their way of life.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-02-03 12:07:36 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


In that regard, you yourself affirmed that belief a few weeks ago.


I merely stated that Commander Kim's admirable patriotic fervour is not uncommon within the ranks of the State Protectorate, and that remains true.

With regards to the specific accusations raised by Ms Ymladris, there are no provist supporters within the State Protectorate. Being a patriot and supporting the Heth regime are not mutually inclusive, and you should be satisfied with the findings of the CEP that provist support within the State Protectorate was eliminated in the months following his denouncement.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#30 - 2015-02-03 16:20:13 UTC
Militias are not political monoliths. Quite the opposite. Ordinary STPRO Pilots must maintain positive standings with the Caldari State, but even this requirement can be skirted if one is accepted into a Capsuleer PMC aligned with the Protectorate. Because many such Pilots join for purely mercenary purposes, it becomes quite difficult to generalize with very much confidence about any Militia in totality.
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