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Neutralizer Mechanics against Smaller Ships
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reaver2145
Satanic Lobster Buttplug With Hidden Unicorn.
#41 - 2011-12-20 13:41:42 UTC
adapt or die

you choose die and cry

congrats
Kitsu Shadow
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#42 - 2011-12-20 14:18:28 UTC
reaver2145 wrote:
adapt or die

you choose die and cry

congrats



Please Provide constructive criticism.

Thanks
reaver2145
Satanic Lobster Buttplug With Hidden Unicorn.
#43 - 2011-12-20 15:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: reaver2145
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
reaver2145 wrote:
adapt or die

you choose die and cry

congrats



Please Provide constructive criticism.

Thanks


oops i thought this was the cloak whine thread my mistake

still adapt akak (fit a longer point/cap booster or die

its that simple or is that not constructive enough for you
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-12-20 16:08:15 UTC
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
In the current meta the job of a frigate gang is to pick off small groups of BCs and BSs and many times other tackle WITHOUT taking sever losses. This should be achieved by groups of 6-10 AFs and loses should come to 2-3 AFs. Nuets will sway this outcome over to 5-6 losses and perhaps more depending on the coordination of the nuets. Two or Three webs plus multiple nuets will completely destroy a an AF gang where as multiple webs will cripple but even the playing field. I dont see how you can continously support that Nuets are not overpowered against Frigate hulls.

Remember that this discussion is regarding the strength of nuets against Frig gangs. Other cc aside ie webs and jamming, nueting has a magnified effect against frigate hulls.


Please indicate where it is written that the job of a (small by your numbers) frig gang is to take on a gang of ships that are decidedly more powerful than you? A solo BC, sure. But a gang of half-decent BC pilots should tear you apart without breaking a sweat, particularly if your gang composition is not very carefully thought out beforehand.

Good BC pilots probably wouldn't even need webs or neuts to kill you, when transversal is the main survival factor, engaging multiple ships that (may) know how to minimise transversal in a many vs. many fight is going to hurt you badly. Give a 'cane pilot low enough transversal against a wolf for example, and the wolf pilots survival is measured in seconds. No web/ neuts needed.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-12-20 16:34:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
A small Nos has a cycle time of 3 seconds. Medium Neut has a cycle time of 12.

Even properly staggered (which rarely happens in the ♪ "heat of the moment" ♫♪) that means you have a Neut hitting you every 6 seconds... which still allows the Nos to cycle 2 times.

You definitely won't be running your armor/shield rep... but you can definitely run your point, web, and maybe your AB or guns.


Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Nos requires activation energy, if ur capped out ur nos may not effectively run also its not the nos cycle time but the AB cycle time which is important, and since the cycle times for the nuets and the AB are fairly close the nos doesnt have enough time between a nuet cycle and the AB cycle to regen enough to cap run the AB


Eh? Nosferatus require no activation energy!

You just need to hammer the web and scram activation keys so that the moment you get some cap they fire up.

And once a cane is scrammed and webbed you don't need to run an afterburner from them not to hit you close.

Just kill the drones first, it is doable.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#46 - 2011-12-20 16:52:19 UTC
One web won't cut it. Light drones go down pretty fast to frigate guns.

So what you are saying is that every ship larger than a frigate should be forced to fit multiple webs in its midslots or face the fact that they will face numerous embarassing losses to solo frigates?

When you fit a frigate you need to consider what your intended target is. If you are fighting other frigates you fit it one way if you want to take on larger ships that often carry neuts you have to fit it another way. But you can't have both.

If anything the fact that by fitting a nos and cap booster to an af you can kill bcs and buffer bses is a problem. Thorax and several cruisers can't fit 2 neuts without a significant gimp. That is why the thorax is very rarely flown.

Its hard to beat a larger ship in an af (unless it doesn't have a neut then its pretty easy) but it should be.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#47 - 2011-12-20 17:23:49 UTC
As a frigate pilot, I, too, think that frigates should be the most powerful ship class.

I often tell people to fit a nos instead of a rocket launcher on a frigate, and the response I get is "but DPS!" A nos increases your survivability enormously, particularly if you equip an armor repairer and are fighting another frigate. Against anything larger, they are mandatory in order to keep your ship running.

If you plan to take on battlecruisers with a frigate, learn all about your targets and how to best counter them. For example, with Hurricanes, learn to tell the difference between 220mm guns, which might track you, and 425mm guns, which might not. Learn to tell from their speed whether it's a shield Hurricane or armor Hurricane you're dealing with. Shield Hurricanes don't web, but are faster and almost certainly have tracking enhancers, so you have to hurry in tackling them and raising your transversal. Be careful where you engage, to minimize the chances of you randomly bumping into something like a station, asteroid, or gate and throwing your orbit and transversal off. And lastly, bring friends. A Kitsune or a Sentinel will win the fight for you. Another AF adds a lot of much-needed DPS. Heck, even just a Rifter is nice if only for drone-popping.

The Drake, Myrmidon, and Harbinger can all be very hard to take down in frigates, but there are similar tactics to those above to make your chances better. Against a competent pilot, they might not be enough, though.

It's not supposed to be easy to take on a big ship in a smaller one. Sometimes, it's not even possible. Live with it, fit to it, etc.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-12-20 17:42:45 UTC
Without Nuets large ships would have no defense against smaller faster ships that their weapon systems can't hit. A frigate should not be able to hold down a Battleship indefinitely.
Kitsu Shadow
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#49 - 2011-12-20 18:41:09 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Without Nuets large ships would have no defense against smaller faster ships that their weapon systems can't hit. A frigate should not be able to hold down a Battleship indefinitely.



Thats y battleships should have support instead of single item that can completely shutdown the role of a frigate.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#50 - 2011-12-20 19:01:21 UTC
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Without Nuets large ships would have no defense against smaller faster ships that their weapon systems can't hit. A frigate should not be able to hold down a Battleship indefinitely.



Thats y battleships should have support instead of single item that can completely shutdown the role of a frigate.


It does not "completely shut down the role of a frigate". The role of a frigate is not to kill battleships, it is to tackle battleships until its gang gets on the field. The slow cycle times of medium neuts and heavy neuts means that while yes, a battleship will shut down and kill a solo frigate eventually, the frigate can handily survive for at least long enough for its gang to come in.

Also, it's "why", not "y", and forums are a long-form medium. There is a 6000 character limit rather than 160 characters for texting or 140 for Twitter. Use full words, proper spelling, and grammar if you want to be taken seriously.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kitsu Shadow
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#51 - 2011-12-20 19:52:06 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Without Nuets large ships would have no defense against smaller faster ships that their weapon systems can't hit. A frigate should not be able to hold down a Battleship indefinitely.



Thats y battleships should have support instead of single item that can completely shutdown the role of a frigate.


It does not "completely shut down the role of a frigate". The role of a frigate is not to kill battleships, it is to tackle battleships until its gang gets on the field. The slow cycle times of medium neuts and heavy neuts means that while yes, a battleship will shut down and kill a solo frigate eventually, the frigate can handily survive for at least long enough for its gang to come in.

Also, it's "why", not "y", and forums are a long-form medium. There is a 6000 character limit rather than 160 characters for texting or 140 for Twitter. Use full words, proper spelling, and grammar if you want to be taken seriously.



Dont come here to correct my grammar or spelling lol, and regarding the quote above this how can a frigate point a BS if its nueted. Moreover the purpose of an AF is to act as hit and run groups that can take down small groups of BSs or BCs. Heavy Nuets and paired med nuets basically limit AF frigate roles and heavier tackle frigates to frig vs frig and some frig vs cruiser action.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#52 - 2011-12-20 20:20:53 UTC
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Dont come here to correct my grammar or spelling lol, and regarding the quote above this how can a frigate point a BS if its nueted.


I'll outline how battleship or other tackle against something heavy works for you:


  1. Frigate has 300 cap (arbitrary amount).
  2. Frigate activates AB, -14 cap. It now has 286 cap. (cycle time=15 seconds)
  3. Frigate activates scram, -5 cap. It now has 281 cap. (cycle time=5 seconds)
  4. Frigate activates web, -6 cap. It now has 275 cap. (cycle time=5 seconds)
  5. Battleship activates a 500W neut on it. -500 cap. Frigate now has 0 cap. (cycle time=24 seconds)
  6. Frigate activates a Knave nos. Steals 8.8 cap. It now has 8.8 cap. (cycle time=3 seconds)
  7. Frigate pilot intelligently turns off the web and AB temporarily, so he has cap to keep the scram running.
  8. In the 18 seconds left before the next 500W cycle, the frig pilot steals 8.8*18/3= 52 cap (without even considering the natural cap regen), more than enough to get his mods going before the next neut.
  9. Rinse and repeat, if even necessary. If your gang isn't there in 30-ish seconds, you need to have a serious talk with them.


These are, of course, dumb approximations done by hand of the numbers involved in the actual fight, but they illustrate that it can be done. Or wait, maybe you were expecting a "point him, orbit at 500m and sit on your hands" solution?

Quote:
Moreover the purpose of an AF is to act as hit and run groups that can take down small groups of BSs or BCs. Heavy Nuets and paired med nuets basically limit AF frigate roles and heavier tackle frigates to frig vs frig and some frig vs cruiser action.


I would actually take a 10 AF gang against 3 Battleships. Pick the one furthest from the others, or the lowest tank one, or the one with poorest tracking, or whatever, and tear it down. Collaborate in drone-killing, and you'll be pretty safe. If the others don't run away, tear them down too.

Again, the AF can take on bigger ships, but it is up to you to make you do it and to know how to do it. Killing any bigger ship in a smaller ship is a challenge, and it is not going to be spoon-fed to you. You need to earn it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#53 - 2011-12-20 20:39:50 UTC
10 AF's against 3 BS is a little overkill, don't you think? Smile

Depending on fits, you won't need more than 1000dps or there about, so even if time is a factor you can get away with 5-6 AF's. Drones are a non-issue for experienced frigate pilots .. swarms (read: 5+ Frigs) are nasty against 1-5 larger hulls .. only real exception (until blaster real-world data arrives) is against AC boats due to their love for TE's and the resulting uber-tracking.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#54 - 2011-12-20 20:43:09 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
10 AF's against 3 BS is a little overkill, don't you think? Smile


Meh, I was thinking price-wise. 10 AFs = 10x 35 mil = 350 mil; 3 tier 2 BSs = 3 * 120 mil = 360 mil.

But you're right. I, myself, would attack a BS with a single AF, but I have been told I am crazy at times.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#55 - 2011-12-21 00:04:40 UTC
Neuts are fine. Leave them where they are. The whole point of a neut is not to be a mere annoyance to a hostile's cap, its to shut him down entirely.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#56 - 2011-12-21 00:22:50 UTC
I will admit one thing: Nos's (especially frigate nos's) need to be easier to fit. Right now they have the same fittings they had back when they used to drain cap regardless of what the target's cap amount was. They are strictly defensive mods now, and should NOT be more difficult to fit than neuts.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kitsu Shadow
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#57 - 2011-12-21 13:04:12 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Neuts are fine. Leave them where they are. The whole point of a neut is not to be a mere annoyance to a hostile's cap, its to shut him down entirely.



The problem with this is that certain ships can't perform the role to any extent b/c of a mod that was designed to reduce the active tanking systems of other ships. Nuets were designed to hurt active tanks with the exception of EWar boats whose job is to shut capacitor down entirely.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-12-21 13:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Neuts are fine. Leave them where they are. The whole point of a neut is not to be a mere annoyance to a hostile's cap, its to shut him down entirely.



The problem with this is that certain ships can't perform the role to any extent b/c of a mod that was designed to reduce the active tanking systems of other ships. Nuets were designed to hurt active tanks with the exception of EWar boats whose job is to shut capacitor down entirely.


I've seen some dimwitted posters on this forum before, but you are on a whole new level.
Ok, as you seem to have repeatedly missed the point, I'll spell it out in nice, simple words for you:

In this game, if you want your ship to do something well, it has to be at the expense of other things.
For example: if you want to take on bigger ships, you'll need to give up a slot or two to a nos and/or cap booster.
If you absolutely can't do this for whatever reason, you need a support ship like a Kitsune or Sentinel

You went and died to a ship with neuts, the sensible thing to do would be to look at how it happened and examine your options to stop it happening again. (Which have been outlined for you, repeatedly, over the course of this thread)

What you actually did was post a whining, crying nerf thread about how neuts are obviously broken because you were too brainless to design your ships/gang to work against them.

Then when people came in and posted evidence and valid argument about why you were wrong, you put your fingers in your ears and went "NOOOO IM RITE UR RONG LOLOLOL"

That's why you're getting quite rightfully flamed.


Quote:
Don't come here to correct my grammar or spelling lol

They're doing you a favour. Using shorthand makes you look like an idiot.
Ok admittedly it seems you really are, but you can at least pretend to have a clue what you're talking about.

Quote:
Simple fact: if you want to fight bigger ships in a frigate and survive - you're gonna have to make some compromises with your fit.

I'm repeating this point as well because you seem to have missed it first time round. Let me know if you need help understanding the longer words.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#59 - 2011-12-21 14:05:47 UTC
Cap boosters are great against being neutralized - so are nosferatus...
Kitsu Shadow
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#60 - 2011-12-21 19:36:39 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Kitsu Shadow wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Neuts are fine. Leave them where they are. The whole point of a neut is not to be a mere annoyance to a hostile's cap, its to shut him down entirely.



The problem with this is that certain ships can't perform the role to any extent b/c of a mod that was designed to reduce the active tanking systems of other ships. Nuets were designed to hurt active tanks with the exception of EWar boats whose job is to shut capacitor down entirely.


I've seen some dimwitted posters on this forum before, but you are on a whole new level.
Ok, as you seem to have repeatedly missed the point, I'll spell it out in nice, simple words for you:

In this game, if you want your ship to do something well, it has to be at the expense of other things.
For example: if you want to take on bigger ships, you'll need to give up a slot or two to a nos and/or cap booster.
If you absolutely can't do this for whatever reason, you need a support ship like a Kitsune or Sentinel

You went and died to a ship with neuts, the sensible thing to do would be to look at how it happened and examine your options to stop it happening again. (Which have been outlined for you, repeatedly, over the course of this thread)

What you actually did was post a whining, crying nerf thread about how neuts are obviously broken because you were too brainless to design your ships/gang to work against them.

Then when people came in and posted evidence and valid argument about why you were wrong, you put your fingers in your ears and went "NOOOO IM RITE UR RONG LOLOLOL"

That's why you're getting quite rightfully flamed.


Quote:
Don't come here to correct my grammar or spelling lol

They're doing you a favour. Using shorthand makes you look like an idiot.
Ok admittedly it seems you really are, but you can at least pretend to have a clue what you're talking about.

Quote:
Simple fact: if you want to fight bigger ships in a frigate and survive - you're gonna have to make some compromises with your fit.

I'm repeating this point as well because you seem to have missed it first time round. Let me know if you need help understanding the longer words.



Guy, u really need to leave this thread. Half this post is about u telling me how i should post. If your going to post constructive criticism that's fine; if your going to come here and insult me or other posters then go somewhere else. It's not necessary nor is it appreciated.