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Strategic Battleship (Dreadnought Baby & Carrier)
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Citricioni
#1 - 2015-02-03 00:11:31 UTC
Strategic Battleship (Dreadnought Baby & Carrier)
- Coordination Module with Offense & Defense Mode. Duration of the Coordination Module similar to the Bastion with one minute while the module is inactive are the pros / cons of modes not present. Prior to that, you can switch between Defense and Offense by a script.
- Advantage through a module for both: You can change your Fitting with the refiting use of a Depot, Nestor.... and got a other ship with a other function but it is still VERY good at that what it do.
- Jump Range as the Black Ops but not on covert cyno
- The slot layout more like the Marauder and not like the Black Ops

The Offense Mode
- Higher Damage: Significantly above Tier 3 BC, Tech 1 BS & Marauder but still less than the Dreadnought
- Increased Range
- Open for support from other players
- Slightly lower resistance

The Defense Mode
- No support from other players
- Increased own tank capacity, higher resistance and increased repair amount on Armor Repairer & Shield Booster
- Reduced DPS
- Lower Range
- Bonus on remote Repairer
- The Remote repair amount should be between Logistics and the remote repair of the carrier without triage, self tank above the Marauder but lower than the carrier without triage (More like the Marauder)

The Defense Mode is the risky part because you need to make sure that this ship don't get a "uber"tank for Small Scale Fleets
For PVE suitable (eg Incursions & Wormholes)

Awesome because you can change the function of the ship in fit by using the refit service of a Nestor, Carrier.........

Greeeeeetings!
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#2 - 2015-02-03 00:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Citricioni wrote:
Strategic Battleship (Dreadnought Baby & Carrier)
- Coordination Module with Offense & Defense Mode. Duration of the Coordination Module similar to the Bastion with one minute while the module is inactive are the pros / cons of modes not present. Prior to that, you can switch between Defense and Offense by a script.
- Advantage through a module for both: You can change your Fitting with the refiting use of a Depot, Nestor.... and got a other ship with a other function but it is still VERY good at that what it do.
- Jump Range as the Black Ops but not on covert cyno
- The slot layout more like the Marauder and not like the Black Ops

The Offense Mode
- Higher Damage: Significantly above Tier 3 BC, Tech 1 BS & Marauder but still less than the Dreadnought
- Increased Range
- Open for support from other players
- Slightly lower resistance

The Defense Mode
- No support from other players
- Increased own tank capacity, higher resistance and increased repair amount on Armor Repairer & Shield Booster
- Reduced DPS
- Lower Range
- Bonus on remote Repairer
- The Remote repair amount should be between Logistics and the remote repair of the carrier without triage, self tank above the Marauder but lower than the carrier without triage (More like the Marauder)

The Defense Mode is the risky part because you need to make sure that this ship don't get a "uber"tank for Small Scale Fleets
For PVE suitable (eg Incursions & Wormholes)

Awesome because you can change the function of the ship in fit by using the refit service of a Nestor, Carrier.........

Greeeeeetings!

Oh look this idea again. Sigh. And not only is it a mini dreadnaught that's still highly agile, cheap, can go in highsec, but it can take jump bridges and titans and can also swap mid fight into mini triage. All while doing several thousand dps at the drop of a hat, or a decent portion of a triage carriers repping ability.

Mind if I propose it also to have personal rapid fire doomsdays, immunity to Ewar, and bubble immunity while we are at it?

Edit: Holy **** it also has it's own jump drive. Whooop whooop! let's strap some Concord mods on this thing and sail off to opress the Jove!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3 - 2015-02-03 00:48:25 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Mind if I propose it also to have personal rapid fire doomsdays, immunity to Ewar, and bubble immunity while we are at it?


It should also have super-low mass so that it can go into C2 wormholes and it should move faster when cloaked than when uncloaked, with no scanres penalty from having a cloak fitted.
Victoria Ramsay
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-02-03 00:51:14 UTC
Wasn't there an escort carrier thread not too long ago?
Citricioni
#5 - 2015-02-03 00:57:41 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Oh look this idea again. Sigh. And not only is it a mini dreadnaught that's still highly agile, cheap, can go in highsec, but it can take jump bridges and titans and can also swap mid fight into mini triage. All while doing several thousand dps at the drop of a hat, or a decent portion of a triage carriers repping ability.

Mind if I propose it also to have personal rapid fire doomsdays, immunity to Ewar, and bubble immunity while we are at it?

Edit: Holy **** it also has it's own jump drive. Whooop whooop! let's strap some Concord mods on this thing and sail off to opress the Jove!


"Highly agile": Battleship != Highly agile
"Cheap": A T2 Battleship is about 1b, a Dread at about 2,5b - so a T3 BS maybe at somewhere around 2b (i don't see the cheap point there)
"can go in highsec": oh noes, there is damage in highsec AHHHHHHHH

?!
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#6 - 2015-02-03 01:14:33 UTC
Citricioni wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Oh look this idea again. Sigh. And not only is it a mini dreadnaught that's still highly agile, cheap, can go in highsec, but it can take jump bridges and titans and can also swap mid fight into mini triage. All while doing several thousand dps at the drop of a hat, or a decent portion of a triage carriers repping ability.

Mind if I propose it also to have personal rapid fire doomsdays, immunity to Ewar, and bubble immunity while we are at it?

Edit: Holy **** it also has it's own jump drive. Whooop whooop! let's strap some Concord mods on this thing and sail off to opress the Jove!


"Highly agile": Battleship != Highly agile
"Cheap": A T2 Battleship is about 1b, a Dread at about 2,5b - so a T3 BS maybe at somewhere around 2b (i don't see the cheap point there)
"can go in highsec": oh noes, there is damage in highsec AHHHHHHHH

?!

1: Since the closest comparisons are the Dreadnaught or Carrier, which are stuck in place during siege/Triage for 5 minutes, or the Marauder, which is stuck in place for 60 seconds, but does far less damage than the proposed ship, cannot be remote repped while bastioned unlike the proposed ship, not can it move unlike your proposed ship, your proposed ship is incredibly agile in comparison.

2: Price alone is not considered a dominant balancing train by CCP. Simply put, a ship should not be overwhelmingly powerful simply because it is expensive.

3: Dreadnaughts and Carriers are restricted from high-sec for numerous reasons. Yet your proposed ship is both able to go in highsec and use jump drives, while combining most of the good traits of both dread and carrier.

The whole thread is a huge dose of " THIS WOULD BE TOTALLY AWESOME!@!!!" with absolutely no regard to game balance whatsoever. If you want to see the myriad of reasons why people are opposed to the idea, go search for "Escort carrier, and battleship dreadnaught or even the "siege battleship" thread currently on page 1.
Citricioni
#7 - 2015-02-03 01:26:45 UTC
I say: "I want to create a car and i want to have a blue wheel on it."
Your answer: "Why your car only have one wheel, it can't drive with only one wheel."

I never said that i don't want it to have something like the Siege, Triage or Bastion velocity -100%

You say cheap, i show you that it can't be "cheap" and you start to argue with the balancing.
I never said that i want 500% Damage of a Marauder, so why you think its like a dreadnought.

I don't know what you are talking about, but mainly not about that what i have posted.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#8 - 2015-02-03 01:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Citricioni wrote:
I say: "I want to create a car and i want to have a blue wheel on it."
Your answer: "Why your car only have one wheel, it can't drive with only one wheel."

I never said that i don't want it to have something like the Siege, Triage or Bastion velocity -100%

You say cheap, i show you that it can't be "cheap" and you start to argue with the balancing.
I never said that i want 500% Damage of a Marauder, so why you think its like a dreadnought.

I don't know what you are talking about, but mainly not about that what i have posted.


Citricioni wrote:

The Offense Mode
- Higher Damage: Significantly above Tier 3 BC, Tech 1 BS & Marauder but still less than the Dreadnought

I was actually assuming a conservative value of roughly 3k DPS.

You have this proposal thrown out here, but since you don't actually specify much of anything, every criticism is met with "I didn't say that"

You say strategic, and then without saying anything else, assume everyone else both understands you mean t3, and that it would have a build cost of 2 bil.

You say it has modes, but you dont specify what happens during those modes. If they can move or if they can't, or if they can warp, if they are effected by EWAR or anything else.

You don't specify how much of a damage bonus the damage mode gets, and given that my marauder does 800 dps @ 90km and my dread does 12K @ 10km , there's a hell of a range in there.

You don't say how much the triage mode reps, or how it functions, and considering my scimi reps around 1k every few seconds while my triage reps 9k, there's a hell of a range in there.

You don't say if the "reduced resists" in the offensive mode is relative to the base hull or to the triage mode.

You propose this ship as a t3, but functions similar to both a t2 BS and a t1 dreadnaught, and you never even mention if it uses t1, or t2, or t3 resist profiles.

You say lower range on the triage and higher range on the BS, but don't mention any sort of figures. You don't even mentions if the baseline for less repping range is the 71Km max skill logi or the 52Km Carrier.

You say that this would tank more than a multi-k dps tank marauder, but that it would somehow not be excessively powerful in small gang situations.

You have no numbers, you have no decent outlines, you have nothing on which to judge other than your current outline of "I want a super BS that can deal far more dps than a Marauder, tank more than a marauder, remote rep far more than a logistics cruiser, jump like a capital, can go in highsec, can go in WH's, and I don't actually need to propose what it's actual capabilities are, nah nah!"

Either give some concrete examples of what you ship can do, what its limitations are, how it functions, or stop whining about people laughing at your pwnmobile.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2015-02-03 02:02:59 UTC
OP is trying to make a soloWTFpwnmobile ship that can perform fleet roles.

Not supported.


It is too versatile.
It obsolete Marauders.
It has a jump drive (hahahaha).
It doesn't have a clear reason/role for existing.
No "Why?" was given.

How did you Veterans start?
Citricioni
#10 - 2015-02-03 02:20:11 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
... people laughing at your pwnmobile.


YOU lough because YOU use the worst case on every point.
There is a DPS Range between 2k and 10k and you use 9.999 to talk bad about that idea.

...don't see a reason to discuss that with you. If you don't like it, tell it and it's okay. Don't use the worst case way by using facts which not exist.
[/quote]
Strategic: Strategic Cruiser, thats a T42 right?
Modes: The EWAR thing is already in the post. And i forgot to add that they are not able to move, warp or jump. When they enter the whatever mode.
Exact number: I don't want to throw around with numbers, i want to show you a idea. There is more than 1+1=2 to get it balanced so every number i tell you from 1 to 50.000 don't make you happy.

Again the car: If you want to create a new car you don't start with the engine, you start with "what i want to do with it"


ShahFluffers wrote:
OP is trying to make a soloWTFpwnmobile ship that can perform fleet roles.

Not supported.


It is too versatile.
It obsolete Marauders.
It has a jump drive (hahahaha).
It doesn't have a clear reason/role for existing.
No "Why?" was given.


Versatile: Remove the Tactical Destroyer, the Strategic Cruiser and every other ship which is used for more than one thing.
Obsolete: Oh no, there is a new ship and it is better than a other one?! oO
Jump Drive: Jumping around is awesome?
Reason/Role: Show me the "reason/role" of EVERY ship group please.

The why? More Ships give more versatility and the posibility to obsolete other ships by using the jump drive and special roles.
There is also your Reason....
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-02-03 02:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
I think the real question is - do we have a gap both dps and tanking ability between top sub cap ships and cap ships.

Should we call devs for archogeddon or dominathos?

Players complaining a lot aboout pocket size carrier and dreadnaught. But really what are the real needs for them right here right now.

CCP has ruined mobility factor for caps, and did it for a reason. So adding these smaller hulls just allow to bypass current restrictions and give a new chances for a classic hot drop doctrines.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Citricioni
#12 - 2015-02-03 02:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Citricioni
Tiddle Jr wrote:
... CCP has ruined mobility factor for caps, and did it for a reason. ...


Large entities crammed in a small space.

But there is still the Black Ops, so get some new friends for the Black Ops - like that one above.

EDIT:
Maybe use that Ship only with Black Ops.
A new Cyno the "Coordination Cyno" - The only ship which can use it is the "Strategic Battleship"
And the cyno module can only be fitted by Black Ops.


No matter what idea is taken here in the forum, you could do so much of it, but instead of working constructively to it or think about it. Some people say how stupid the ideas are.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2015-02-03 02:57:50 UTC
Citricioni wrote:

ShahFluffers wrote:

It is too versatile.
It obsolete Marauders.
It has a jump drive (hahahaha).
It doesn't have a clear reason/role for existing.
No "Why?" was given.


Versatile: Remove the Tactical Destroyer, the Strategic Cruiser and every other ship which is used for more than one thing.
Obsolete: Oh no, there is a new ship and it is better than a other one?! oO
Jump Drive: Jumping around is awesome?
Reason/Role: Show me the "reason/role" of EVERY ship group please.


- The T3 Destroyer is only versatile in the sense that it can modify certain "important" stats every 10 seconds... not change entire roles or functions on the fly.
As for the T3 Cruiser... I am betting good money that they are going to be nerfed to the ground. And they are only versatile in the sense that they have to swap around expensive subsystems along with their fits to perform in any specific role.

- the beauty of EVE is that the DEVs try not to obsolete ships on purpose. Every ship can be used effectively.
And simply being "more advanced" does not make a ship straight out better. Tech 2 ships may be superior to their Tech 1 variants in some ways... but Tech 1 ships can still beat them if they aim for the "built in weaknesses" of Tech 2 ships.

- Awesome or not... the jump drive is too powerful of a tool.

- Seriously?

Frigates: Cheap, easy to use ships specializing in anything from skirmish warfare, to brawling, to tackling.
Examples:
Atron, Executioner, Slasher, Condor are frigates with a tackling role/emphasis.
Ares, Malediction, Stiletto, Crow are Tech 2 frigates specializing in interception and tackling... at the cost of being very paper thin.
Tristan, Punisher, Rifter, Merlin are frigates with a brawling role/emphasis.
Enyo, Retribution, Wolf, and Hawk are Tech 2 frigates specializing in heavy brawling... at the cost of speed and mobility (relative to other frigates).

Cruisers: "bread and butter" ships with well rounded mobility, damage, and defense to filly a myriad of roles.
Examples:
Celestis, Arbitrator, Bellicose, Blackbird are cruisers with an Electronic Warfare role/emphasis.
Lachesis, Curse, Huggin, and Rook are Tech 2 cruisers further specializing in Electronic Warfare.
Vexor, Maller, Rupture, Moa are cruisers with a brawling role/emphasis.
Ishtar, Sacrilege, Muninn, and Eagle are Tech 2 cruisers further specializing in brawling.

At no point in time do the "brawling" cruisers outclass the "brawling" frigates (Tech 2 or otherwise). The frigates are more mobile and can pick and choose their fights better... while the cruisers have more staying power.

I could go on, but you should get the point by now. Every ship/class has a role that does its best not to step on the toes of another ship/class. Ideally, nothing outclasses anything else. They all have niches.

Quote:
The why? More Ships give more versatility and the posibility to obsolete other ships by using the jump drive and special roles.
There is also your Reason....

In my eyes, you just shot down your own idea.
Obsoleting old stuff with new stuff "because of cool" is a terrible practice for game development... because in the long run creates a whole array of "useless stuff" that clutters up the database and throws the wrench in player-run industry.

How did you Veterans start?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-02-03 03:00:17 UTC
Citricioni wrote:


The Offense Mode

- Open for support from other players




This is my personal favourite part.

Nobody would ever fly a dread again.
Citricioni
#15 - 2015-02-03 03:12:12 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Citricioni wrote:


The Offense Mode

- Open for support from other players




This is my personal favourite part.

Nobody would ever fly a dread again.


Only because you think about a 8k DPS Battleship, which can be supported by Logistics and/or Carriers.
Now try it again with 3k DPS and the Dreadnought is sexy again.


Tiddle Jr wrote:
I think the real question is - do we have a gap both dps and tanking abulity between top sub cap ships and cap ships.


Battleships got 400%-500% the damage of a frigate.
A Dread 600%+ from the Battleship

The diffrence: Between the frigates and the battleships are 3 ship classes. Between the battleships and the dreads is nothing.
The skills and the cost are a little bit more, but not "that" much.
So, YES there is a gap.


@ShahFluffers
Okay, go on:
There is a T1 Frigate with a logistics role.
<- no destroyer ->
There is a T1 Cruiser with a logistics role.
There is a T2 Cruiser with a logistics role.
<- no battlecruiser ->
<- no battleship ->
There is the Carrier + The Triage Module.

So if you want Logistics in "larger fights" you need Logistics MANY MANY MANY Logistics (T2 Cruisers) and/or Carriers. Why don't add a Battleship for that.

There are about 123456789 Small Ships for everything. And about 600% above everything the Capitals appear. Why don't add something to fill the gap?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2015-02-03 03:25:32 UTC
Citricioni wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Citricioni wrote:


The Offense Mode

- Open for support from other players




This is my personal favourite part.

Nobody would ever fly a dread again.


Only because you think about a 8k DPS Battleship, which can be supported by Logistics and/or Carriers.
Now try it again with 3k DPS and the Dreadnought is sexy again.




A dread is stationary for five minutes and cannot receive remote reps.

This thing is stationary for one minute and can be repped. Half the price for a third of the DPS, immunity to DDs, and a massive buff to survivability.



And if you want RR battleships, buy a nestor.
Citricioni
#17 - 2015-02-03 03:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Citricioni
Danika Princip wrote:
A dread is stationary for five minutes and cannot receive remote reps.

This thing is stationary for one minute and can be repped. Half the price for a third of the DPS, immunity to DDs, and a massive buff to survivability.



And if you want RR battleships, buy a nestor.


Half the price: why? (because you say its half the price)
Immunity to DDs: why? (so only because a ships make X DPS more than a Battleship it need to be doomsday'd)
Massive buff to survivability: why? (Just to get together, how many EHP / HP/s Tank you think about 999.999.999?
Thats again the reason why there is no sense in talking about numbers without a finished idea of a ship.

Is it so hard to talk about things which are written?

Caleb Seremshur wrote:
We live in an age where entire fleets of carriers can be fielded so thus the questio I ask of these ships always is: did you consider the problems while fleets of these things would present?


Okay, and entire fleets of carriers are no problem? maybe 50 carriers and 50 dreads are still better than 100 of that ships?
I don't see any problem. no.

If you wait 5 years there will be fleets of titans doomsday every "smaller" group which is used to do roamings in carriers. And tomorrow Santa Claus apperas in the open mouth of the Avatar.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#18 - 2015-02-03 03:29:16 UTC
We live in an age where entire fleets of carriers can be fielded so thus the questio I ask of these ships always is: did you consider the problems while fleets of these things would present?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2015-02-03 03:35:56 UTC
Quote:
So if you want Logistics in "larger fights" you need Logistics MANY MANY MANY Logistics (T2 Cruisers) and/or Carriers. Why don't add a Battleship for that.

Because...

- Tech 2 Logistics cruisers are pretty much battleship-class in everything but name and tank (they use large RRs). In fact, Logi ships over a certain number are ALREADY notoriously difficult to kill (with 4 Large RRs each one can rep ~300 raw hp/sec).

- Carriers are basically oversized versions of Logi ships... but are MUCH more vulnerable without proper support (it can barely defend itself against a lowly frigate) and has the added option of using the Triage Module (which gives it even more vulnerabilities in exchange for being even more specialized towards remotely and locally repping).


There is no "gap" between these two ships because they both scale incredibly well for all types and sizes of fleets.

How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#20 - 2015-02-03 03:48:19 UTC
Citricioni wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
A dread is stationary for five minutes and cannot receive remote reps.

This thing is stationary for one minute and can be repped. Half the price for a third of the DPS, immunity to DDs, and a massive buff to survivability.



And if you want RR battleships, buy a nestor.


Half the price: why? (because you say its half the price)
Immunity to DDs: why? (so only because a ships make X DPS more than a Battleship it need to be doomsday'd)
Massive buff to survivability: why? (Just to get together, how many EHP / HP/s Tank you think about 999.999.999?
Thats again the reason why there is no sense in talking about numbers without a finished idea of a ship.

- The price will have to be around 1 billion ISK because that is how much Tech 2 battleships cost.
Generally speaking... Tech 3 prices are no more than 20 to 30% more than Tech 2 prices (these days at least).

- Titans cannot target subcapitals. At all. Ergo, they are immune to Doomsdays (unlike Carriers and Dreds).

- Mobility = survivability. A ship that is only pinned down for 1 minute but can still repped has a massive survivability advantage versus a dreadnought... which is pinned down to one spot for 5 minutes and cannot receive remote assistance.

- it is not just the numbers we are questioning (you have to include some kind of range or at least a reasonable reference point to a ship that already exists).
We are also questioning the concept itself. You are taking all the advantages of capitals (high dps, high RR abilities, jump drive)... adding them to the advantages of subcapital ships (mobility, remote repairs, small size)... and then adding on extra versatility that no ship in the game has... with only token drawbacks (special modules).

How did you Veterans start?
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