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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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New to station trading
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Jamie Jacobs
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-02-02 10:00:18 UTC
Hello All,

I know there are alot of topics about station trading already but I have some specific questions:

1) Tax related question

transaction tax: the seller will pay 1% of the sell price as a transaction tax (0.5% at max skills)
broker fee: 1% of the total order (0.75% at max skills), modified by standings

This means, at perfect skills with no standings you pay 1.25% Tax when buying or selling stuff?
This means, when buying and later selling items, you pay 2.5% tax with perfect skills?

How is standings with the corp that owns the station (or the faction the corp is part of) involved in this?

2) Volume related question

I am currently in Amarr, but have been in Jita aswel and have about 1bil working capital atm.
When checking out high-volume items, the margin is generally low (logically). However I seem to have difficulties in using all my isk in a sane way.

I have no problem putting all my isk in items that give me 10% margin on the buy/sale, but looking at the margin * volume/day I can buy/sell, I get nowhere near 10% profit per day.

I imagine that the more isk one has, the bigger this problem becomes in order to use the extra isk you have available.

How do you fix such a situation?
Chal0ner
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#2 - 2015-02-02 10:31:34 UTC
Just pointing out there is a Market Discussions forum for these kind of questions. I have no idea, economy and trade isn't my stronger points either (nor is it RL).

Back to more contructive replies =)
Memphis Baas
#3 - 2015-02-02 11:29:29 UTC
Broker fee is the fee for setting up an order. You pay it if you set up orders. Buying from an existing sale at the listed price doesn't set up an order, thus no broker fee. Modifying your order every 5 minutes so you're on top of the 0.01 ISK bidding war that happens in trade hubs also involves a fee each time.

Standings reduce tax, not broker fee.

10% profit / day = you double your 1 billion ISK in 8 days = holy cow!!!! I think your expectations of daily profit are way too high. I think people can make a killing like that only when they correctly predict some future CCP nerf and manipulate the market for the affected items, otherwise on a day to day basis it's quite a bit less than that.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#4 - 2015-02-02 11:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
1) no idea, like Chal it's not something I ever really focussed on, I bet EVE uni wiki has the answer


2) there's a lot take in to account in this regard:

- you probably shouldn't pick items that start off with a 10-15% difference between buy and sell orders because, as you noticed, you never really make that actual margin

- it's not so much that you have to go for high volume goods, but more that you aim for stuff that is traded a lot compared to the supply/demand percentage wise. If an items only sells 10 a day and the supply for that is low because of that then you can jump in there and try to claim those 10, if they're goods with high margins (which tends to be the case with low volume goods) then that can work out fine

- generally you'll have different goods with different characteristics: You'll have some high volume faster movers. You'll also have some high value, good margin, low volume stuff so in addition to your normal item it makes sense buying and selling a 500 mil costing faction/T2 ship (or anything else of course) a day for 25 mil profit. It's a great way to use excess funds without it making it all too complicated



More general advice:

- avoid the 0.01 isk shuffle: turnover is more important than milking the last % profit, because faster cycles start to add up really quickly


- a way to actually get transactions is to just rush in there and mess stuff up. if buy orders are 100 and sell orders are 130 and everyone is doing the shuffle on both sides then no one is really getting anything done, you joining the shuffle will result in nothing.

So what you do is just barge in there and set a massively higher buy order but for low volume so that the shufflers will not want to outbid you because "what is this ******* doing, he's messing up our margins!" and "it's only a few, when he's gone they're all mine again". Meaning you WILL get the transactions, and then you do the same on the other side; agree to a much lower sell order price well below everyone else, and you WILL get the transactions. And when filled you place new orders for, again, low volume.

This will of course mess up profit margins for that item if you keep doing it but it's not like you should care, you jumped in there grabbed a bunch of quick profit for low effort (no need to ogle and do the shuffle). Make your profits and get the hell out when ppl catch on (and even send you angry mails about how you're stupid for messing with the margins, while you actually got profit and they're still shuffling).

Once you sufficiently fcked up trading for that item, and made your profit, simply stop bothering with it for 1-2 weeks and go trade something else. By that time it'll be back to normal and you can do it again :)
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-02-02 11:57:30 UTC
1) you got your info wrong.
initial sale tax is 1.5% and can be reduced to by Accounting skill to 0.75% at lvl V.
you pay sale tax only when you sell something. you dont pay it when you buy something.
initial broker fee is 1% and can be further reduced by Broker Relations skill to 0.75% at lvl V.
the skill-reduced fee can be further reduced by good standings with the faction and NPC corporation that owns the station. at perfect standings with both, you can reduced the broker fee by a factor of 4 to 0.1875%.
you pay a broker fee every time you use an order, whether sell or buy, instead of buying or selling directly to existing orders.
2). just find other items to trade. I started with implants. and frankly finished with them too. station trading is too mind numbing for me. got a dozen bill to start some other things, and never touched station trading again.
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-02-02 12:26:16 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Broker fee is the fee for setting up an order. You pay it if you set up orders. Buying from an existing sale at the listed price doesn't set up an order, thus no broker fee. Modifying your order every 5 minutes so you're on top of the 0.01 ISK bidding war that happens in trade hubs also involves a fee each time.

Standings reduce tax, not broker fee.

10% profit / day = you double your 1 billion ISK in 8 days = holy cow!!!! I think your expectations of daily profit are way too high. I think people can make a killing like that only when they correctly predict some future CCP nerf and manipulate the market for the affected items, otherwise on a day to day basis it's quite a bit less than that.


standings reduce broker fees, not tax.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#7 - 2015-02-02 15:51:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
- a way to actually get transactions is to just rush in there and mess stuff up. if buy orders are 100 and sell orders are 130 (and everyone is doing the shuffle on both sides) then no one is really getting anything done, you joining the shuffle will result in nothing.

So what you do is just barge in there and set a massively higher buy order but for low volume so that the shufflers will not want to outbid you because "what is this ******* doing, he's messing up our margins!" and "it's only a few, when he's gone they're all mine again". Meaning you WILL get the transactions, and then you do the same on the other side; agree to a much lower sell order price well below everyone else, and you WILL get the transactions. And when filled you place new orders for, again, low volume.

This will of course mess up profit margins for that item if you keep doing it but it's not like you should care, you jumped in there grabbed a bunch of quick profit for low effort (no need to ogle and do the shuffle). Make your profits and get the hell out when ppl catch on (and even send you angry mails about how you're stupid for messing with the margins while you actually got profit and they're still shuffling).

Once you sufficiently fcked up trading for that item, and made your profit, simply stop bothering with it for 1-2 weeks and go trade something else. By that time it'll be back to normal and you can do it again :)

This is good advice, if your aim is to mess with people and if you have fun imagining other traders cursing you for killing the margins (kudos to you, if you manage to get them mad enough to find out who you are and then send hate mails to you). It's one way to prove that trading is just another form of PvP that's sometimes almost as messy as high sec ganking. (Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit.)

However, if your aim is making ISK, my advice would be to ignore what Gregor Parud wrote.
There's no denying that what he wrote would work... sometimes, and maybe for one or two transactions... depending on what you trade. But what he forgot to mention is, that there's always a bigger fish, people with better skills, more knowledge, deeper pockets.

If you would do what Gregor suggested on one of the items I monitor, I might let you get away with it once or twice. But only if I consider the leftover margin not worth my time. And if it's not worth my time, you should ask yourself why it should be worth your time. Plus I do a lot of swing trading. This means that quite often I could sell to buy orders and still make good profit... and it's not unlikely that I have a large enough stock to keep it up for some time. Plus my standings are almost maxed (skills too, of course)... this means that when I play along with your deep undercutting and beat you by 0.01 ISK, I'll still make considerably more profit doing the same you just tried to do. In the end you might have an order that does not fill and the only thing you've accomplished is killing the margin.

There's more ISK to earn if you either join the 0.01 ISK war to make the most of a good margin (I think you could call this "farming" the market) or if you use the knowledge from monitoring (a part of) the market to go for swing trading.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#8 - 2015-02-02 16:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Myriad Blaze wrote:
However, if your aim is making ISK, my advice would be to ignore what Gregor Parud wrote.
There's no denying that what he wrote would work... sometimes, and maybe for one or two transactions... depending on what you trade. But what he forgot to mention is, that there's always a bigger fish, people with better skills, more knowledge, deeper pockets.


Quote:
If you would do what Gregor suggested on one of the items I monitor, I might let you get away with it once or twice. But only if I consider the leftover margin not worth my time


So what you mean to say is that it works exactly like I said, I'm quite sure that's why you don't like it :) Besides that there's always someone with deeper pockets so that doesn't change anything. Following the horde of semi market bots all doing the 0.01 shuffle is terrible; swoop in, grab some profit and get out when it goes sour and then wait till it stabilises again works really well.
voetius
Grundrisse
#9 - 2015-02-02 19:22:01 UTC

Another way to attack the volume question is to "close the margins". This one will really make the other traders squeal. But like most things there are costs associated with it.

First of all, if it isn't obvious what I mean, it is to raise the buy price and push the sell price down at the same time so that what used to have, say a 7% difference between buy and sell orders gets reduced to 5 or 4%.

The cost is a) reduced profits all around. b) other traders will hate you c) you might get more trades done, try it and see if it works for you d) you probably want to spend some time maxing out your revelant trade skills and getting corp and faction standings up to offset the reduction.

Alternatively, have a read of threads in the MD forum, trading strategies are endless and you might get some better ideas.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-03 07:26:22 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So what you do is just barge in there and set a massively higher buy order but for low volume so that the shufflers will not want to outbid you because "what is this ******* doing, he's messing up our margins!" and "it's only a few, when he's gone they're all mine again". Meaning you WILL get the transactions, and then you do the same on the other side; agree to a much lower sell order price well below everyone else, and you WILL get the transactions. And when filled you place new orders for, again, low volume.
My personal experience in Jita is that someone will always outbid you. Even if you just place one item and that at a decent distance from the normal price. Of course, you can totally exploit that to manipulate prices for personal profit. Maybe other markets are a bit more levelheaded.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#11 - 2015-02-03 22:17:03 UTC
Firstly the taxes. Both correct and incorrect answers have been given.

There's two charges.

Tax: Baseline is 1.5% sales tax (on successful sales), able to be reduced to 0.75% with Accounting 5.

Broker fees: Baseline is 1%, reduceable to 0.75% with Broker Relations 5. Then, how much the corporation AND faction that own the station like or dislike you will modify this by a factor of up to 4.

As a trader you will spend more in broker fees than in tax as you pay broker fees even on unsuccessful orders. You can be competitive trading lower value items (which generally have higher margins) with higher broker fees, but you cannot be competitive on lower margin, higher price items. The extreme case is PLEX trading and mineral trading - both of these require near perfect standings and perfect skills to profit from them. (Speculative trading is different, you can speculatively trade these items with merely good standings).



Re your volume question. You can't make a 10% return on capital daily except at low amounts of capital. A daily 10% return on capital would mean you double your holdings every week and in just 20 weeks you would have in excess of a quadrillion ISK and in just 25-26 weeks, you would own more than every EVE player combined.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-02-03 23:19:32 UTC
Time to bust a bubble:

10% daily return on your wallet...aint going to happen.

Your expectations are WAY to high there.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

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Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2015-02-04 05:01:24 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
So what you do is just barge in there and set a massively higher buy order but for low volume so that the shufflers will not want to outbid you because "what is this ******* doing, he's messing up our margins!" and "it's only a few, when he's gone they're all mine again". Meaning you WILL get the transactions, and then you do the same on the other side; agree to a much lower sell order price well below everyone else, and you WILL get the transactions. And when filled you place new orders for, again, low volume.
My personal experience in Jita is that someone will always outbid you. Even if you just place one item and that at a decent distance from the normal price. Of course, you can totally exploit that to manipulate prices for personal profit. Maybe other markets are a bit more levelheaded.



This can definitely be used for gain on low value items. Say you want 10000 units of Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate for personal use. Buy a hundred, and post 50 of them at a price that closes 10% of the buy/sell spread. Wait. If you are bought out, just try it again. If not, you'll be undercut by a much larger order than your own - now, counterundercut that order. Repeat, then when the price falls to a level you are happy with, buy your 10k units.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com