These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Assembly Hall

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why I didn't vote in the 2014 CSM

First post
Author
Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-02-01 01:21:59 UTC
At the Fanfest csm panel last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkc0Y4RHVY at around 24mins the question is asked why so many don't bother to vote.

I thought around now might be a good time to offer one individual answer at least.

The TL:DR of why I didn't vote in 2014 is the STV system. Forcing ppl to make 14 votes discourages them from bothering, and is too exploitable by power blocs who send out voting instructions to their members.

In 2013 I spent a considerable amount of time researching all the candidates, listening to all Xanders interviews to be able to vote. But as a low sec resident not one of my top 3 choices made it in, leaving me feeling like I'd been forced to vote for Nul blocs.

In a top 3 choices system, the power blocs were forced to vote against each other, but now they can all vote for each other which has lead to even greater Nul sec dominance in the csm.

So in 2014 I had 2 strong disincentives stopping me from voting.

My suggestion would be having 4 constituencies (Hi, Low, Nul, WH) and each candidate names which constituency he is standing in, with the 3 highest votes from each getting elected.

And drop the STV obviously.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2 - 2015-02-01 05:01:20 UTC
2/10

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2015-02-01 05:12:01 UTC
You know you don't have to vote for all 14, right?

By the time most votes hit their 5th or 6th candidate, the vast majority of their voting power is expended.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#4 - 2015-02-01 05:49:46 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You know you don't have to vote for all 14, right?

By the time most votes hit their 5th or 6th candidate, the vast majority of their voting power is expended.


You know that so many people go around telling people at 1) you have to vote for all 14 or 2) that if you don't vote for all 14, you're wasting your votes. And that came from people who were on CSM 8. So it's hard to blame anyone for believing they did have to fill out all 14.

The STV is not really well understood, even by its advocates. It's kind of hard to get behind or participate in something you don't understand.


The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-02-01 08:33:19 UTC
The idea of constituencies is not a new one and best answered with questions. If a player has alts in high but belongs to a null alliance which constituency does he belong to? Do we have to register to vote? Declare our allegiances before the actual campaigns begin? Can you change your registration if you have chosen a new lifestyle? Would there be a minimum residency requirement? Could it be 'gamed' by an organized portion of the electorate?

Not to mention all the groups that would be bypassed if you had only the 'big four' of high, low, null and worm.

STV is matth-y and confusing for some and yes I might be one who encourages people to fill out more of the ballot then might be needed but that is because I want to be sure their vote counts for something. Better to have your ballot contain some extraneous names than to die because you only write one name . . . and they didn't get in. Or another name but they were already in and didn't need your vote.

Show me a better way and I will support it, but going back to First past the post and or constituencies doesn't qualify for that support.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-02-01 09:06:02 UTC
i'll be honest

i only really care about the first few names on my ballot. the rest are mostly mushed in names that incumbent csm members recommended
Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-02-01 13:29:03 UTC
admiral root wrote:
2/10

I must admit that is very strong and well explained point of view.

I concede I was wrong, and now advocate STV voting as a simple, easy to understand, and unexploitable asset to the CSM voting process, which encourages participation and diversity.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#8 - 2015-02-02 02:44:12 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

STV is matth-y and confusing for some and yes I might be one who encourages people to fill out more of the ballot then might be needed but that is because I want to be sure their vote counts for something. Better to have your ballot contain some extraneous names than to die because you only write one name . . . and they didn't get in. Or another name but they were already in and didn't need your vote.


Sorry Mike, but this is why you would probably never accept any suggestion I make. I believe that the mere act of voting is a positive act worthy of a person's effort, while you consider it a waste of time unless the vote results in helping someone achieve quota. I actually think it is worse if you vote for a candidate you don't feel strongly about or even know much about than to cast a ballot that does not result in casting a vote for a winner.

But, on the bright side, if you look at the CSM from a market research perspective, the STV will get the most out of the limited sample that will select the members of the focus group Smile

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-02-03 08:29:49 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:


Sorry Mike, but this is why you would probably never accept any suggestion I make. I believe that the mere act of voting is a positive act worthy of a person's effort, while you consider it a waste of time unless the vote results in helping someone achieve quota. I actually think it is worse if you vote for a candidate you don't feel strongly about or even know much about than to cast a ballot that does not result in casting a vote for a winner.


No, I agree voting is always better than not voting. I just like to see it have the most effect. But I agree that voting is good, period.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#10 - 2015-02-06 12:00:19 UTC
The case against voting for the CSM:

The CSM is a Focus group for Eve Online

source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2uf66e/how_to_get_owned_as_a_csm_by_ccp_leeloo/co8h5ff

Meaning: A focus group is a form of qualitative research in which a group of people are asked about their perceptions, opinions, beliefs, and attitudes towards a product, service, concept, advertisement, idea, or packaging.
Questions are asked in an interactive group setting where participants are free to talk with other group members.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_group

Which implies an atmosphere of cooperation within the focus group and the company, good luck with that with eve meta gaming politics, and drama queens, and absentee members, and getting information in time from the company to respond on, and leaking information to constituents, and the company's upper echelon management making extremely poor business decisions.

But then again I do believe in hew-man interaction, whether it be good or bad or ugly, it makes for a more engaging game.
Internet spaceships is serious business after all, and I will continue to keep on voting even though it is logical to not do so Cool

Regards, a Freelancer

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#11 - 2015-02-06 14:28:06 UTC
Quote:
The CSM is a Focus group for Eve Online


Here is Sion Kumitomo (CSM 9 goon) opinion about the CSM as being limited now as a focus group, 4 minutes into the Cap Stable interview:

"The CSM should be really focused on having a player agency in terms of legislating the process and the rules by which we play a sandbox game, and to have that kind of influence on the rule set."

source: http://capstable.net/2015/02/01/sion-kumitomo/

He also mentions the t20 scandal, for you aspiring new csm members it's a good history lesson CCPgames tend to ignore in it's CXM X candidacy now open dev blog.

The CSM White Paper page 4 and 5 says:

INFLUENCE ON HOW SOCIETY IS LEGISLATED
  • Finally, individuals have the right to influence how society is legislated. Until now, this right has not been fully accessible.
  • The goal of CCP is to provide EVE’s individuals with societal governance rights. In similar fashion to a real-world democracy models, candidates will be selected by fellow peers to be the voice of their interests to the legislator. Once elected, the responsibility of these representatives will be to uphold the society’s views as best they can via direct contact and dialogue with CCP. Central to this concept is the idea that increasing the “utility” of EVE’s society will encourage more individuals to join it.

    (This is obviously where the Focus Group hallmark comes from)

  • What can be done is to redistribute some power back to individuals and increase the contact points where the most direct influence on society can be exerted: by awarding selected player representatives the same opportunity to discuss and debate the ongoing evolution of EVE that CCP employees have.

  • This is the grey area which the CSM has had to struggle with the company since 2008 on how much influence it can have, and currently we see that the company is more inclined to out of game media pressure to change the rule set of the game then what the CSM thinks about it.

    source: http://jestertrek.blogspot.nl/2014/03/the-bonus-round.html
    (Ripard Teg as an eve media personality vs him as a CSM member)

    Will CSM X be an even better unpaid non-junior dev, focus group for the company or will we see a newly written white paper that rephrases the CSM as a player agency and have another discussion for 7 years what it's role could be.

    oh damn, now I probably for the first time as a New Eden born capsuleer have to vote for Sion, an oog SA forum foreigner, nah Cool

    Eve online is :

    A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

    D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

    http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

    http://bit.ly/1egr4mF