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Best AI in a game?
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#1 - 2015-01-30 23:46:41 UTC
The subject says it: Any thoughts on games with best/really good AI?

(A few comments:
-I'm thinking of actual "artificial intelligence," in which the non-player opponents or actors solve problems, intelligently react to the players actions, or optimize their own advantages.

-The toughest AI I've seen is in computer chess programs. It not only reacts to the players' moves, but it sets up traps and "three moves ahead" strategies. But that's in a simple, two-dimensional 8 squares x 8 squares world, of course.

-Long ago, driving games had about the highest level of AI. The NPC cars had to do path-finding, avoid collisions with other moving, objects, and optimize their speeds around the course, without crashing.

-What's called "AI" in gaming is not always AI. For example, in Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon, the NPC guards standing around look to the left and right. The art department made them that way. So the design guys made the chances of them detecting the player character higher, when the NPC's eyes are pointed toward the PC. That's not really AI (to me). It's not problem-solving, it's just giving bonuses to the random dice rolls in certain situation.)

Anyway, just wanted to hear people's thoughts. I wouldn't mind checking out a game with some great AI.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-01-31 20:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ila Dace
QQP games:
- The Lost Admiral
- Conquered Kingdoms
- The Perfect General
- The Grandest Fleet

Really strong game AI that didn't cheat. Also, Bruce Williams Zaccagnino liked "The".

Found one of them here: http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/759/Lost+Admiral,+The.html
Also: http://www.myabandonware.com/game/conquered-kingdoms-1da
Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsGPMzTqbc

These were never games you played for the graphics, even when they were released. These were games you played for the game-play.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Ragnar Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-01-31 22:46:00 UTC
Play STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl with a mod that restores the AI to that which it was pre-release. You won't be disappointed.
Bud
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-01-31 23:13:35 UTC
Destiny has really good AI
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#5 - 2015-02-01 00:11:24 UTC
Ila Dace wrote:
QQP games:
- The Lost Admiral
- Conquered Kingdoms
- The Perfect General
- The Grandest Fleet

Really strong game AI that didn't cheat. Also, Bruce Williams Zaccagnino liked "The".

Found one of them here: http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/759/Lost+Admiral,+The.html
Also: http://www.myabandonware.com/game/conquered-kingdoms-1da
Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsGPMzTqbc

These were never games you played for the graphics, even when they were released. These were games you played for the game-play.

The Perfect General really was a really great game. Those battles could turn into really engrossing dramas.
From the same era, Close Combat's AI could give you a working over it you weren't careful.

In contrast-- Napoleon Total War. I love the Total War series, and the AI does pretty well with ancient and medieval units. But with gunpowder ranged battles, it doesn't know where to put its artillery. (For example, if it's attacking a town, the arty is often behind houses, with its line of sight blocked). And the AI won't move the artillery to where it can get better shots.

What about AI Wars? It gets good reviews, and it's proud enough of it's AI to put it in its name....

Thanks for the other suggestions guys, I'll check them out. Keep them coming.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#6 - 2015-02-01 11:18:09 UTC
Ragnar Severasse wrote:
Play STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl with a mod that restores the AI to that which it was pre-release. You won't be disappointed.


I tried searching for this with no Luck.

Whats the Mods name?

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-02-01 14:05:09 UTC
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-01 14:25:47 UTC
Rise of Nations (available again on Steam) also had a reasonably tough AI for an RTS.

Distant Worlds: Universe is a fairly unique 4x game, good AI, good enough that you can let it automate anything you don't want to bother with (ship design, colony administration, empire taxation, diplomacy, military patrols). More than anything, it's an intricate sim that allows you to override with your own orders. It even simulates private enterprise you don't control (you're the state, after all).

I have AI Wars, but haven't gone past the tutorials yet. Gratuitous Space Battles was similar enough that I got further into that before Bastion and Wolfenstein: The New Order took my time.

Lately, though, I've been playing Dungeon of the Endless. It's a great little game for casual play. Mash together turn-based exploration strategy (each room is a turn), RTS squad combat, tower defense, rogue-like permadeath and "runs" and you end up with this. If you liked FTL, you'll probably like this.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#9 - 2015-02-01 15:18:13 UTC
You'd be hard-pressed to top the Berkeley Overmind.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2015-02-01 22:19:16 UTC
AI is confounded by too many possible outcomes, based on matches of the game Go. That's a contest on a finite number of points on a grid, using a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm. Until AI is capable of meta decision-making, it has no hope of competing with human intuition, or wielding yomi (see: Garcia vs. Sirlin (Analysis vs. Intuition) section halfway down).

Add just a couple variables until AI fails.

AI compensates for its lack of intuition with resiliency, and the replay value of AI has more to do with the overall game than the AI's isolated performance. "Good AI" is vague. Are you looking for a consistently fun overall game experience? Or is your interest research-related, and in search of gems of AI implementation in a game of particular complexity?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-02-01 22:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ila Dace
Rain6637 wrote:
AI is confounded by too many possible outcomes, based on matches of the game Go. That's a contest on a finite number of points on a grid, using a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm. Until AI is capable of meta decision-making, it has no hope of competing with human intuition, or wielding yomi (see: Garcia vs. Sirlin (Analysis vs. Intuition) section halfway down).

Add just a couple variables until AI fails.

AI compensates for its lack of intuition with resiliency, and the replay value of AI has more to do with the overall game than the AI's isolated performance. "Good AI" is vague. Are you looking for a consistently fun overall game experience? Or is your interest research-related, and in search of gems of AI implementation in a game of particular complexity?

Technically...

Nah, not going to do that.

Khergit was specific about not discussing real Machine Intelligence. He was merely talking about games with challenging computer opponents. That means... https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Your earlier post about human opponents being the superior experience is spot on, though.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2015-02-01 22:35:27 UTC
Khergit, it was not my intention to sound argumentative and I trust you'll recognize that. Unlike someone else.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-02-02 11:35:56 UTC
Bud wrote:
Destiny has really good AI

Just to (partially) Quote UAE:

Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Sarcasm detectors three states away exploded from the readings off of our 'conversation'.


Yup, that's what your comment is like.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#14 - 2015-02-02 23:50:12 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
AI is confounded by too many possible outcomes, based on matches of the game Go.

Are you looking for a consistently fun overall game experience? Or is your interest research-related, and in search of gems of AI implementation in a game of particular complexity?

That's it Rain, I'm interested in finding out about any gems of AI. I kind of followed AI development back long ago (Windows 95 through Windows 98 days). At that time the couldn't even begin to try having AI deal with Go. At one point they were theorizing about "neural" problem solving (with parallel processing pathways, and in the end "averaging" the conclusions of each pathway. The way the human brain does. I don't know whether that went anywhere). Now there are some AI Go games around, but I suspect they follow some set formula, and don't really see the meta big picture.

So basically, I'd like to see what has happened with AI development in the past 15 years or so. But by casually dealing with a good one in a game, rather than by reading treatises on it. I'm a lazy bustard, I admit.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#15 - 2015-02-03 02:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Alice Saki wrote:
Ragnar Severasse wrote:
Play STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl with a mod that restores the AI to that which it was pre-release. You won't be disappointed.


I tried searching for this with no Luck.

Whats the Mods name?




Call of Pripyat Complete - Official Trailer


This could be it, did not try it but planing to it should have advanced stealth and other stuff like every npc is unique person that react to how you interact with it and other stuff.

I think complete mod spawns all stalker releases.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. MISERY 2.0 trailer

This one i did try it is too stronk for me starved me few times in noob area il try it again when i find time.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-02-07 00:34:34 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Khergit, it was not my intention to sound argumentative and I trust you'll recognize that. Unlike someone else.

Given Khergit's comment, looks like I was the one that goofed. Apologies, Rain.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Lahene Osunt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-02-07 06:09:18 UTC
Quote:


So basically, I'd like to see what has happened with AI development in the past 15 years or so. But by casually dealing with a good one in a game, rather than by reading treatises on it. I'm a lazy bustard, I admit.

Has AI in games evolved over the past 20 years? Looking at turn based strategy games I cant see any improvements. Its hard enough to find an AI that can competently function within the framework of the game itself and a higher difficulty setting only allows the AI to cheat by having more hitpoints, faster build queues or better odds when the dice are rolled.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2015-02-07 10:28:50 UTC
Emperor Battle for dune.

The AI it had before it was launched was brutal by all accounts.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-10 18:11:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Emperor Battle for dune.

The AI it had before it was launched was brutal by all accounts.

Shame they lobotomized it on release. Still enjoyed that game, though.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#20 - 2015-02-10 21:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Lahene Osunt wrote:
Quote:


So basically, I'd like to see what has happened with AI development in the past 15 years or so. But by casually dealing with a good one in a game, rather than by reading treatises on it. I'm a lazy bustard, I admit.

Has AI in games evolved over the past 20 years? Looking at turn based strategy games I cant see any improvements. Its hard enough to find an AI that can competently function within the framework of the game itself and a higher difficulty setting only allows the AI to cheat by having more hitpoints, faster build queues or better odds when the dice are rolled.


This is kind of what I suspected, for turn-based strategy games at least. For console action games, I think the NPCs might be better at pathfinding than they used to. I don't see NPC in Assassin's Creed getting stuck in corners or falling of cliffs, like the ones in Tenchu (PS, 1999).

Shadow of Mordor is getting excitable reviews for its "AI." The innovation is that when you fight an Uruk orc NPC, it gains experience and levels. The next time you meet it, it's stronger. And it has scars from the last battle. There's no mention of the NPCs having learned your moves or anything-- apparently they just level up.

Doesn't sound like real Artificial Intelligence innovation to me. More like innovation in general environment design. Might be a fun game, though.