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Zealot and Absolution = Underpowered
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James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-02-01 00:47:46 UTC
I've been looking at Command Ships, mostly because I want a T2 Battlecruiser. rather than traditional command ship roles. Restricting myself to gun boats with long-range guns (which is what I want to fly) and assuming sane fits, this is what I found (at least on paper):

- The Astarte can produce the most raw DPS. No surprises there, it's Gallente. Downsides are poor tracking against smaller/close ships and dependency on drones to make up for that, which can get killed off and are not optimal if you have to warp in/out frequently.

- The Absolution can produce the second most DPS, and can do so with substantially better tracking than the Astarte, without the dependency on drones. The downside is that it may not realistically need that advantage, and its ideal engagement range sits right at the ideal engagement range of Gallente drone boats.

- The Vulture has a dramatic range advantage. Again, no surprises there. Caldari are almost always range-bonused. It suffers from poor tracking and DPS up close.

- The Sleipnir can easily out-tank any of the other ships, and has great alpha, but its DPS and tracking are pathetic. It's Minmatar, so again, no surprises.

In the end, I that the Absolution may be slightly underpowered vs. the Astarte, but I think that's more of a function of Gallente ships getting way too much free DPS in the form of drones, than a weakness of the ship. It's clearly better than the Vulture at close range, and clearly worse at long range. It's probably worse than the Sleipnir in big fleets, where a command ship's job is to boost and survive, but almost certainly better n smaller fleets, where you can't afford to have a battlecruiser-sized ship that doesn't apply damage well.
Dregalis DeGraiden
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-02-01 01:36:30 UTC
Hmm, so no one agrees with my propose changes? Well I appreciate the input. Guess that means I have to start looking at the Legion for soloing wormholes, as the Zealot appears to be a sniper platform not suited for soloing. And as for the Absolution, can someone post me that shadow cartel fit?
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2015-02-01 02:04:04 UTC
Looking at it, its the classic close enough to mistake it for something else, but not good enough in the line up. That you are basically mistaking the rough jack of all things for having a specialization. Amaar ships to me are bland because they are dumb ships. THey don't need you to think, their tank is passive, the guns are just load scorch, they can barely move so you don't worry about going somewhere, etc.
That is their strength, also their weakness because they can be out dpsed, outranged, and outmanuvered easily.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2015-02-01 02:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Zealots used to be quite the rage when the AHAC doctrines were big.

Remember, the HACs were supposed to be counters to battleships. Since the warp speed changes everything has gravitated to cruisers, namely T3s, and the one obscenely whack HAC: Ishtar.

You don't see fleets of anything anymore except T3s and Ishtars. This is nullsec big fleets I mean. Various gangs and lowsec groups and all use all sorts of stuff, including Zealots and Absolutions.

I really don't think all the ships need to be changed every time there's a change in the meta and the player base goes in a different direction.

Nerf Ishtars. Ruin them for sentries and give them some other sort of drone use like the Gila has.

Nerf T3s.

Then you'll see the various strengths of the different cruisers shine. Remember the Alphafleet doctrine? What did you need to take out a billion Maelstroms? Zealots. They are made to be used en masse against battleship fleets getting in up close below tracking and razing them. They are not meant to be an anti-frigate force. They should not have tracking bonuses.

I can't speak about the Absolution, as I don't fly any command ships. What I can say from reading about them and from choosing the one I wanted to train for (Claymore) is that the whole class is a little messed up. They are generally inferior boosters to T3s for a multiple of reasons. They are quite cool and get used, but when you start saying a Command Ship needs to get a buff because it is not a superior ship of the line you're a little off. Command ships should be boosters that are worth using with stats designed to keep fleet commanders alive. They need a complete rethink.

So I vote no on your problems with Amarr T2 medium laser ships. The Zealot is perfect for an out of vogue meta. You change it to something else and all the sudden some game tweak brings battleships back into style and then you clamor 'we wish we had a cruiser that can shred turret battleship fleets.' Well, you turned the Zealot into a frig killer (with way too much tank and some good speed to boot) so you don't deserve to have a Maelstrom counter. Oh and the capacitor bonus was to allow it to keep that afterburner running so battleships can't track it - the tank was for the way into your close orbit. It's a beautiful design for what it does.

Just saying, there needs to be a more compelling reason than 'there's something it can't do like another cruiser can.'
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#25 - 2015-02-01 02:43:04 UTC
Zealots are not OP at all.......nor underpowered.....one of the ships that's very well balanced \o/
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#26 - 2015-02-01 03:26:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I will admit I do miss the glory days of sniper Zealot gangs


I think Test still does them? Maybe not, but they're still a fun comp to fly.
Maqari Kinraysuwa
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#27 - 2015-02-01 05:01:59 UTC
The Absolution is fine. Command ships are fine, for the most part. The only thing I would change about BCs is to give them a speed increase, to tighten the gap between them and cruisers, and to create more between them and battleships. This is more of an issue with battlecruiser balance as a whole, because they are, by and large, simply too fat and slow to make use of, outside of some niche circumstances and fleet compositions.

Command ships make up for that weakness, to some extent. It's hard to complain about 120k ehp and 700 dps with ~90% omni resists, even if the ship only goes 900ms under MWD. The reason CSes aren't used isn't because they are bad, but because T3s are better in pretty much every way, and by enough of a margin to justify the increased cost and lower dps. The reason Zealots aren't used is because of the Legion and, to a lesser extent, the Ishtar. Even though the Legion costs 5x the price of a Zealot, it absolutely eclipses it in every significant metric. The solution isn't to buff anything, but to balance out T3s and put Ishtars back in the ground, so they can keep HMLs company.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2015-02-01 05:29:01 UTC
This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-02-06 03:14:39 UTC
Maqari Kinraysuwa wrote:
The Absolution is fine. Command ships are fine, for the most part. The only thing I would change about BCs is to give them a speed increase, to tighten the gap between them and cruisers, and to create more between them and battleships. This is more of an issue with battlecruiser balance as a whole, because they are, by and large, simply too fat and slow to make use of, outside of some niche circumstances and fleet compositions.

Command ships make up for that weakness, to some extent. It's hard to complain about 120k ehp and 700 dps with ~90% omni resists, even if the ship only goes 900ms under MWD. The reason CSes aren't used isn't because they are bad, but because T3s are better in pretty much every way, and by enough of a margin to justify the increased cost and lower dps. The reason Zealots aren't used is because of the Legion and, to a lesser extent, the Ishtar. Even though the Legion costs 5x the price of a Zealot, it absolutely eclipses it in every significant metric. The solution isn't to buff anything, but to balance out T3s and put Ishtars back in the ground, so they can keep HMLs company.


About battlecruiser, the real world philosophy on them was cruiser speed, battleship damage, paper tank, maybe like cruiser tank.

The problem in converting that to Eve is the issue of cost. The reason that battlecruisers did not replace cruisers in the real world navies is they cost more. Well, T1 BCs do cost more than T1 cruisers, but T2 cruisers cost more than T1 BCs. And while T2 BCs cost more than T2 cruisers, T2 BCs aren't his of the line - they are fleet commanders.

So it's kind of hard to translate exactly how the BCs should relate exactly to cruisers. In Eve, BCs have similar or superior firepower to cruisers, and slightly superior to castle superior tanks, but are much slower.

I personally agree with you and would like to see BCs a lot faster, able to move every bit as fast as cruisers, with certain elements such as tank and firepower either equal to a cruiser or vastly superior, with cruisers having basically no advantage over BCs other than being cheaper. However, the whole T1/T2 thing really messes that up in Eve.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#30 - 2015-02-06 03:25:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.


whats the beef with carthage? (carthum conglomerate?) and zealot is viziam .. also damnation is still much better than absolution, why fly an absolution instead?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Victoria Ramsay
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-02-06 03:36:47 UTC
Zealots are great ships and not underpowered at all.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#32 - 2015-02-06 04:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.


whats the beef with carthage? (carthum conglomerate?) and zealot is viziam .. also damnation is still much better than absolution, why fly an absolution instead?


In the historical Rome vs Carthage conflict, neither side would back down, and kept coming back for more after being defeated in smaller wars.

So eventually Rome sieged Carthage, burned it down, leveled everything that remained, tore down the walls, salted the ground so that nothing would grow, sold all the survivors into slavery, and divided the surrounding land among Roman citizens so there was no chance of Carthage ever coming back to irritate Rome.

So in this context, he's most likely saying he'd like Ishtar and T3's to be beat with the nerf bat till they resemble mashed potatoes.
Dregalis DeGraiden
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-02-07 02:59:33 UTC
Victoria Ramsay wrote:
Zealots are great ships and not underpowered at all.


In what way are they used effectively? Can you post some fits that can be used in c2/c3 wormholes?
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#34 - 2015-02-07 03:29:49 UTC
Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:
Victoria Ramsay wrote:
Zealots are great ships and not underpowered at all.


In what way are they used effectively? Can you post some fits that can be used in c2/c3 wormholes?


They are excellent sig tankers with long range damage projection, decent speed, decent tracking, decent dps. In large fights they work well against many doctrines. But not well against sentries. Very poorly vs sentries in fact.

That is not what you need in a WH. Look at a Legion, not a Zealot.
Dregalis DeGraiden
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-02-07 04:46:44 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:
Victoria Ramsay wrote:
Zealots are great ships and not underpowered at all.


In what way are they used effectively? Can you post some fits that can be used in c2/c3 wormholes?


They are excellent sig tankers with long range damage projection, decent speed, decent tracking, decent dps. In large fights they work well against many doctrines. But not well against sentries. Very poorly vs sentries in fact.

That is not what you need in a WH. Look at a Legion, not a Zealot.


Thing is I already have max Legion skills, but thought that the risk of losing a Legion is greater due to the skill loss and decided to train for Heavy Cruisers to fly the Zealot for C2/C3's along with a Gila on my other account since I'm a total noob at doing wormholes. Also would like to train to fly a Diemos in the future so tell me, is training Heavy Cruisers to V a waste of time? Should I give up on the Zealot and just use my Legion? And what is the best way to use a Legion without getting ganked in a wormhole? I have another alt that can use a Falcon, but not sure how to use it in wormholes or fit it.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-02-09 19:42:22 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.


whats the beef with carthage? (carthum conglomerate?) and zealot is viziam .. also damnation is still much better than absolution, why fly an absolution instead?


In the historical Rome vs Carthage conflict, neither side would back down, and kept coming back for more after being defeated in smaller wars.

So eventually Rome sieged Carthage, burned it down, leveled everything that remained, tore down the walls, salted the ground so that nothing would grow, sold all the survivors into slavery, and divided the surrounding land among Roman citizens so there was no chance of Carthage ever coming back to irritate Rome.

So in this context, he's most likely saying he'd like Ishtar and T3's to be beat with the nerf bat till they resemble mashed potatoes.


Great historical reference and explanation of said reference.
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