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In-game spreadsheets
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2015-02-01 00:42:06 UTC
Van Beyus wrote:
You obviously never used a spreadsheet in your life. It's one of the simplest pieces of software one can build. It exists practically since the born of computers. It is just a bunch of slots for data with a small formula filter on each one. The rest of it is just fancy graphical functionality I personally don't care about. There's no possible way for it to present a security issue to the game.

So pathetic, yet so predictable and so typical. I have a different opinion than you do there for I am a complete idiot who has no clue about spreadsheets.

Ever heard of Visi-Calc?
Been using that since it was released, I will assume that you know what it is and just post this link for others that may not be as spreadsheet learned as you after all they may have an interest in these ancient pieces of software. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VisiCalc

How about MultiPlan?
I am sure that being as learned in things spreadsheet as you are you must have worked with the grandfather of Excel. Again for those interested in a little history I provide this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan

How about Lotus 123?
Surely you have worked with this as it is one of the most recognizable pieces of software from the first few decades of the desktop computer revolution, again the link for those who may have an interest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_1-2-3

Suffice it to say that I have been working with spreadsheets for more than 30 years and I am quite aware of what they can do.

Other than to show you just how poor of an idea it is to post these types of things about someone you do not know all of this is really besides the point.
There are many things wrong that are far more critical to the game and ALL of us who play it. When ALL of those things that affect ALL of us are fixed then I will fully support your desire to have an in-game spreadsheet.

Yes I am aware of how easy it would be to put a spread sheet into the program, however there are at least 2 major problems with doing so.
First - CCP has limited developer resources and moving any of them to an in game spread sheet takes them away from other tasks they NEED to be working on.

Second - One of the stated reasons for the in game browser going away is security concerns. In order to have the functionality that you want this in game spread sheet would essentially need to have an in game browser to allow it access to the internet thus opening back up many of the same security holes CCP is tryng to plug by doing away with the in game browers.


Van Beyus wrote:
I shouldn't need to use third party tools for such a trivial job. EvE industrial players NEEDS this. Whoever says he doesn't need a spreadsheet to play industry is probably doing it wrong.

We should not need to use third party software to experiment with ship fits but we do.
We should not have to use third party software to plan our cap ship jumps but we do.
We should not have to use third party software to look up the effects of a specific worm hole class but we do.
I can go on but you should be able to understand the point by now. There are a great many things in this game that players have to use third party software for that we should not. But you know what the same thing goes for all of them, when all of the core game issues that affect everyone are fixed up then CCP can start working on these and your spreadsheet.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#22 - 2015-02-01 00:51:33 UTC
Van Beyus wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
You discussed this topic in another thread you created.

Reported for redundacy

That's ridiculous. You're reporting because you're a douchebag. I already got a thread locked for no reason because people don't like the way I discuss. Please link where I was discussing spreadsheets in-game. I only suggested it, realized it was a good idea for a new discussion and opened this thread. What a dork.


I wanted to deal with this separately from the other responses.
Calling people names on the forums is against the rules. No I will not report this it is not my style, those you are calling names can report you if they desire.

Beside it being against the rules calling people names does not help you in you quest to convince the rest of us that we need an game spread sheet.

To close this one a kindly word of advice. If you cannot write a post that is civil, or you cannot write it without calling people names then I respectfully suggest that you wait several hours or maybe even longer before posting. I am prone to this same problem that is why I write all of my posts offline in a word processor and then think about them for an hour or two before I copy and paste it into a post here.
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-02-01 01:06:30 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Van Beyus wrote:
Nolen Cadmar wrote:
As many have said already CCP does not need to spend time developing in-game spreadsheets. There a lots of ways to make the OOG. Excel and Google docs are work just fine. I'd rather CCP invest their time in any of a million more important things.
This is not a reasonable argument. Not only because spreadsheets are easy to develop but also because you can evoke it upon any suggestion. "No, I don't like this idea, devs should work in another thing".


So why don't ya write one instead of complaining?

And zee answer is: you can't.

You contradict yourself. You can make Excel™ to poll the crest api with some simple requests, it's already there and since EVE is running on M$ SQL Server you will find a billion topics and things to do just that.

I hate maket monkeys anyway. They should all biomass themselves and CCP should feel bad to giving them control over thing they shouldn't have control over.

I can't write an in-game tool unless I have acess to the game's source code.
I considered CREST, but different to what you say, there's almost no documentation about it to be found. I couldn't even tell if the market API for it was indeed realeased or if it is still on the test servers only. Nonetheles CREST could be used by the devs inside the game to implement a spreadsheet everyone can use. I have some programming skills but I bet most of the people playing the market do not. And regardless of what you think about market and people who play it, it is a major part of the EvE gameplay. It's what puts it apart from other strategy wargames. It makes resources to be in constant flux, and not locked to a single owner.

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2015-02-01 01:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Beyus
Donnachadh wrote:

Yes I am aware of how easy it would be to put a spread sheet into the program, however there are at least 2 major problems with doing so.
First - CCP has limited developer resources and moving any of them to an in game spread sheet takes them away from other tasks they NEED to be working on.

Second - One of the stated reasons for the in game browser going away is security concerns. In order to have the functionality that you want this in game spread sheet would essentially need to have an in game browser to allow it access to the internet thus opening back up many of the same security holes CCP is tryng to plug by doing away with the in game browers.
I already said this "dev must work on other things" argument is worth nothing. Devs will always be working on something. If we cannot give suggestions because devs must be working on other things we may as well just close the F&I forum and ignore any new ideas whatsoever.

It's good to know you're knowledgeable on the use of different spreadsheet software. Regardless of that I think you don't quite understand how it is executed on your machine. You don't need to have a browser or access the internet to use it. An in-game spreadsheet access nothing besides the own game database, unless it is programmed to do otherwise. That does not represent a security issue.

Also, AFAIK there's devs right now working on the fitting window refactoring so you don't need a thirdy party software to experiment fits. Neat, uh?

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-02-01 01:23:35 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Van Beyus wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
You discussed this topic in another thread you created.

Reported for redundacy

That's ridiculous. You're reporting because you're a douchebag. I already got a thread locked for no reason because people don't like the way I discuss. Please link where I was discussing spreadsheets in-game. I only suggested it, realized it was a good idea for a new discussion and opened this thread. What a dork.


I wanted to deal with this separately from the other responses.
Calling people names on the forums is against the rules. No I will not report this it is not my style, those you are calling names can report you if they desire.

Beside it being against the rules calling people names does not help you in you quest to convince the rest of us that we need an game spread sheet.

To close this one a kindly word of advice. If you cannot write a post that is civil, or you cannot write it without calling people names then I respectfully suggest that you wait several hours or maybe even longer before posting. I am prone to this same problem that is why I write all of my posts offline in a word processor and then think about them for an hour or two before I copy and paste it into a post here.

That guy said he'd report the thread just because he was mad on a sarcastic comment I made to him on another discussion. I'm not saying calling people names is right, but he was asking for it. No matter how polite you are, manipulating moderation to harm people you don't like is not much civilized either.

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#26 - 2015-02-01 01:56:12 UTC
Your other thread.....mineral diversity or something like that...

You stated you didnt want to use spreadsheets...then went on about them and how math and logic wer not the same.......

Anyway....I know this is not C&P but since your taking it personal i will also then.

Sending a mail to a friend......you should read my current BIO and hope he doesnt find you undocked.

Now please just quit ship toasting all over the F&I because simply you can not take the hint around here.....so its back to in game for you to learn a lesson.
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-02-01 02:37:53 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Your other thread.....mineral diversity or something like that...

You stated you didnt want to use spreadsheets...then went on about them and how math and logic wer not the same.......

Anyway....I know this is not C&P but since your taking it personal i will also then.

Sending a mail to a friend......you should read my current BIO and hope he doesnt find you undocked.

Now please just quit ship toasting all over the F&I because simply you can not take the hint around here.....so its back to in game for you to learn a lesson.

Please stay on topic, Max.

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-02-02 00:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Van Beyus wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
-1 a thousand times over.

Grab onto your favorite search engine and look around, everything you have asked for is available in many places around the net so forth and use these very well done tools.

We have many problems in game that NEED dev time and I do not want them wasting that dev time on fluff like this when you can simply go forth and find the tools that work for you. Once they have all of the ships. modules and everything else in the game balanced and working well then they can attend to things like this,

Since the in game browser is going away due to security and other issues I suspect that you will never see anything like this in game.

You obviously never used a spreadsheet in your life. It's one of the simplest pieces of software one can build. It exists practically since the born of computers. It is just a bunch of slots for data with a small formula filter on each one. The rest of it is just fancy graphical functionality I personally don't care about. There's no possible way for it to present a security issue to the game.

I shouldn't need to use third party tools for such a trivial job. EvE industrial players NEEDS this. Whoever says he doesn't need a spreadsheet to play industry is probably doing it wrong.



Using is different from programming chief. Good programmers make the effort to have that application running complex things in background transparent. This is not easy stuff at times.


Office application players like M$ office, openoffice, etc...live for their application to improve and make their applications more efficient as designs and algorithms change. MS puts a lot of time and effort to make sure they have users not hating life as much when the boss has the data cruncher run analysis in excel that even a SAS/R/much more suited data analysis application user is going man I wouldn't touch that data project as is.

Lots going on under the hood in spreadsheet. Did you know there are several ways to handle means calculations for example. The theory of sum of instance values divided by number of instances....lots of ways to implement this. And none are THE way, programming rarely has one that the THE way lol. I just focused on mean (average)...study informatics to some degree and you will find lots of algorithms and implementations to choose from for many common functions of a spreadsheet.

And your understanding of application security is lacking as well. Every application feature is a potential flaw or source for errors to adversely affect a system. This is why devs take lots of time to bullet proof applications. Case of M$, you see a fair amount of security patching for office as creative types find ways to inject stuff via office applications. MS and other sneaks this in your home patching as most don't read the notes to see this. I am an IT admin and tend to care about the gory details of a patch. As I don't approve patches on a whim that once it hits 1000+ clients....can make for a bad day if crap hits the fan lol.


WHy CCP is better off leaving this to those who can focus on this more really. Ole boy pulls down a spreadsheet with some packaged badness and they click on oaky to use it....if something had happens its between the user, thier AV and say M$ to play the blame game. CCP has a game to improve. M$ has a whole section on their campus to improve office alone. And a security division as a back up if a truly unique hack found in spreadsheet.
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-02-02 01:11:25 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Van Beyus wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
-1 a thousand times over.

Grab onto your favorite search engine and look around, everything you have asked for is available in many places around the net so forth and use these very well done tools.

We have many problems in game that NEED dev time and I do not want them wasting that dev time on fluff like this when you can simply go forth and find the tools that work for you. Once they have all of the ships. modules and everything else in the game balanced and working well then they can attend to things like this,

Since the in game browser is going away due to security and other issues I suspect that you will never see anything like this in game.

You obviously never used a spreadsheet in your life. It's one of the simplest pieces of software one can build. It exists practically since the born of computers. It is just a bunch of slots for data with a small formula filter on each one. The rest of it is just fancy graphical functionality I personally don't care about. There's no possible way for it to present a security issue to the game.

I shouldn't need to use third party tools for such a trivial job. EvE industrial players NEEDS this. Whoever says he doesn't need a spreadsheet to play industry is probably doing it wrong.



Using is different from programming chief. Good programmers make the effort to have that application running complex things in background transparent. This is not easy stuff at times.


Office application players like M$ office, openoffice, etc...live for their application to improve and make their applications more efficient as designs and algorithms change. MS puts a lot of time and effort to make sure they have users not hating life as much when the boss has the data cruncher run analysis in excel that even a SAS/R/much more suited data analysis application user is going man I wouldn't touch that data project as is.

Lots going on under the hood in spreadsheet. Did you know there are several ways to handle means calculations for example. The theory of sum of instance values divided by number of instances....lots of ways to implement this. And none are THE way, programming rarely has one that the THE way lol. I just focused on mean (average)...study informatics to some degree and you will find lots of algorithms and implementations to choose from for many common functions of a spreadsheet.

And your understanding of application security is lacking as well. Every application feature is a potential flaw or source for errors to adversely affect a system. This is why devs take lots of time to bullet proof applications. Case of M$, you see a fair amount of security patching for office as creative types find ways to inject stuff via office applications. MS and other sneaks this in your home patching as most don't read the notes to see this. I am an IT admin and tend to care about the gory details of a patch. As I don't approve patches on a whim that once it hits 1000+ clients....can make for a bad day if crap hits the fan lol.


WHy CCP is better off leaving this to those who can focus on this more really. Ole boy pulls down a spreadsheet with some packaged badness and they click on oaky to use it....if something had happens its between the user, thier AV and say M$ to play the blame game. CCP has a game to improve. M$ has a whole section on their campus to improve office alone. And a security division as a back up if a truly unique hack found in spreadsheet.
Yes, I know using is different than programming. Donnachadh already replied tolding me how he is knowleadgeable on the use of spreadsheets, and I believe him.

An in-game spreadsheet doesn't need to have all functions a dedicated spreasheet software has. EvE calculator does not handle binary or hex numbers and nobody misses it.
Regardless of the way you implement it all spreadsheets have the same basic functions. If EvE had an in-game spreadsheet with only the 4 basic math operations, but at the same time could manage to update imported market values dinamically, it would already be a million times more usefull to players than any dedicated third party spreadsheet software out there.

If you say that an in-game spreadsheet has to deal with the same security issues than an in-game browser you have little understanding of software architecture yourself. It represents no more security issues than any other game feature that has access to the database. It has the same potential danger that bookmarks have. The worst can happen is a pc freeze if a user opens up a spreadsheet with more calculations than his computer is can handle. No worse than what already happens with some bomb killmails out there.

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-02-02 01:33:51 UTC
Jezus I do not want to see CCP trying to build a spread sheet editor. It would be implemented as a half arsed version, missing all sorts of key features and being a ***** to work with. Not to mention it would probably look horrible.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-02-02 01:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Beyus
TigerXtrm wrote:
Jezus I do not want to see CCP trying to build a spread sheet editor. It would be implemented as a half arsed version, missing all sorts of key features and being a ***** to work with. Not to mention it would probably look horrible.
And what do you think are the key features of a spreadsheet?

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2015-02-02 01:42:34 UTC
Van Beyus wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Jezus I do not want to see CCP trying to build a spread sheet editor. It would be implemented as a half arsed version, missing all sorts of key features and being a ***** to work with. Not to mention it would probably look horrible.
And what do you think are the key features of spreadsheet?


Just all kinds of different formula's, like rounding and such. That's pretty basic, but there are advanced ones which will no doubt be forgotten about.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-02-02 01:45:25 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Van Beyus wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Jezus I do not want to see CCP trying to build a spread sheet editor. It would be implemented as a half arsed version, missing all sorts of key features and being a ***** to work with. Not to mention it would probably look horrible.
And what do you think are the key features of spreadsheet?


Just all kinds of different formula's, like rounding and such. That's pretty basic, but there are advanced ones which will no doubt be forgotten about.

Wich ones of those advanced formulas do you think are necessary for an industry/market player?
BTW, I disagree with you about the appearence. CCP seems pretty competent in producing visually appealing content.

I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
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