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Rokh

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#121 - 2015-01-31 18:21:02 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You'll not see anyone suggesting that the Rokh is better than a Marauder for running level 4's.

Oh and towards the end you'll see yourself linking a fit with a cap booster on it and claiming that it is cap stable.



Who said anything about how the Rokh should compete with a marauder. Who said anything on that fit being stable?

"(hence the CCC for instance, making it stable on everything but the repper/AB)."

"(p.s. it's not difficult to run non stable fits)"
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2015-01-31 18:22:10 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
This alternate reality where low skill missions BS who for years had problems or issues suddenly now all last longer and dont have to keep running back to station, just because they're the amazing MJD Rokh, is true. Before the MJD Rokh everyone lost a ton of time during missions, it all makes sense now. And that was before the Hybrid/rail buffs.

Also, apparently, fitting both AB and MJD on an armour tanked ship (which thus has the mid slots for it) is bad and makes no sense with a railgun sniper fit hyperion, because 300 m/s is a vast improvement over the base 150m/s and i wont be able to outrun battleships and get webbed and killed but who cares about that.

So: lots of lies about dps being the only thing that is important and not caring about losing your ship, lots of not understanding game mechanics and how sniping actually works, lots of weird logic from myself, lots of linking fits 3 pages ago while I didnt link any fits up until now. Lots of "but if you use T2 ammo then Rokh projected dps is fine (it's not, it's terrible, its a whole 70 dps lower. Yeah, i know, 70 dps may seem like nothing, but its really a lot. Trust me, I'm the CEO of CCP. Also, have you seen what Javelin does on a rokh? Cause it gains 10km of additional optimal vs a hyperion)" while also saying "but the OP has low SP so a tanked fit won't work fine" and of course a whole lot of "a low skilled low drone skilled BS can't tank a lvl 4 mission without having to dock up and replenish drones and may sometimes risk being pointed".


Fix'd
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#123 - 2015-01-31 18:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Quote:
because 300 m/s is a vast improvement over the base 150m/s and i wont be able to outrun battleships and get webbed and killed but who cares about that


So what you're saying is that before MJD mission BS would get killed all the time. Also you're... kinda forgetting that said Hype HAS MJD, but it uses it when there's a NEED for it (either to traverse distances or to get out of possible bad trouble).



p.s. You're sperg posting so much you uhm... forgot to actually reply to the important one.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2015-01-31 18:29:42 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:


You would have been better off chaining lvl 3 than gnawing on lvl 4s in a Drake, also back then HML and the Drake itself were a lot better. So yeah, facts and all that.

I'd agree that you could probably make more isk running level 3s in the drake but that's not what you said. You said "better off". Better is a word of comparison used to indicate one's opinion and here you use it as if it were a factual statement when there is no way that you could possibly know what is better for someone else. You could claim that for you it's better. You could claim that they could make more isk running level 3s but you can't say it's better for them.

I could give examples of times when some one would want to run level 4's in a drake but it's pointless because you can't seem to think in anything but black and white.

As far as your "facts and all that" comment the reason that I mentioned before the tiericide is to keep it factual and honest so people would know my comment was not given the current game mechanics. So yes facts and all that.

Gregor Parud wrote:

I'm not "behind" at all, as if discussions are to be won, we simply disagree on reasons to fly or recommend stuff. If you haven't noticed it really is clown Rex who does the sperging, I just react to it.

Rex has put forth the best, most honest, most coherent, most informative info on this thread. The fact that you are now resorting to character assassinations shows that deep down inside somewhere you even realize that you've lost this argument.

And blaming someone else for your reactions? what are you 3 years old?

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#125 - 2015-01-31 18:33:14 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Rex has put forth the best, most honest, most coherent, most informative info on this thread.


Don't make me quote his factual mistakes and misunderstandings of game mechanics.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2015-01-31 18:35:32 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
- I TOO can lie about stats like cap by keeping all mods running all the time, like AB, MJD and tractor beams (p.s. it's not difficult to run non stable fits)


With cap boosters? Sure. You are aware that cap boosters... eventually.... run out, right? That you dont have an infinite supply in your cargo hold? Even 10 cap booster 800s take up half of your cargo space.

Quote:

- that Rokh isn't using the same ammo because it needs to be at range, oops


Only against frigates, oops.

By the time frigates are killed battleships will be well within range of antimatter, and deal far more damage, oops. No one is saying that you should always jump 100km away from the enemy for a combined distance of 120-130km. Even 70-80km is good enough for sniping.

Quote:

- I like how you "forgot" the drones


Did not. Drone DPS was included. Oops.

Quote:

- yes, no newbie who flies BS for lvl 4 has to train AWU to lvl 3.

Yup. Especially when it takes around 9 days to train WU to 5, while having the need to train other things like drones, Cap management skills, etc etc.

Remember when the OP said she didnt want to train drones because it will delay her from getting into L4s by 2 weeks? Well, lets add another week to that!
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#127 - 2015-01-31 18:37:44 UTC
So you use your drones... from MJD ranges. Nice. Care to link a fit?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2015-01-31 18:41:54 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So you use your drones... from MJD ranges. Nice. Care to link a fit?

OP said she did not want to train drone at this point. Have you read any of this?

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#129 - 2015-01-31 18:42:42 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
So you use your drones... from MJD ranges. Nice. Care to link a fit?

OP said she did not want to train drone at this point. Have you read any of this?


While true we're discussing fits as such.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2015-01-31 18:49:00 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:


While true we're discussing fits as such.

Mr. Parud I congratulate you. You have successfully trolled me. I honestly thought this was an actual debate. You've had me fooled for 7 pages. My hat's off to you sir, well done.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2015-01-31 18:49:51 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Quote:
because 300 m/s is a vast improvement over the base 150m/s and i wont be able to outrun battleships and get webbed and killed but who cares about that


So what you're saying is that before MJD mission BS would get killed all the time. Also you're... kinda forgetting that said Hype HAS MJD, but it uses it when there's a NEED for it (either to traverse distances or to get out of possible bad trouble).



p.s. You're sperg posting so much you uhm... forgot to actually reply to the important one.


Low skill character sniping BS setup in an afterburner, before the MJD? Yeah, pretty sure the survivability on that was pretty low to begin with. Im certain people would go MWDs with a sniping BS setup. But then again, thats just me. You know, the whole "I dont want to lose my ship" thingy.

But I still dont understand what the point of the afterburner is. When a group of frigs/bs rats spawn 25 km from your location, and the frigs start burning towards you at 700m/s while the bs burn at 300 m/s, if you dont have a MWD, youre gonna have to be using and relying on the MJD to gain distance, a tactic you sorely seem to hate. Whats the point of the Afterburner? can you please shed some light on your tactic that doesnt rely on MJD that applies to a low skilled character with poor speed/poor drones skills?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#132 - 2015-01-31 18:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Mr. Parud I congratulate you. You have successfully trolled me. I honestly thought this was an actual debate. You've had me fooled for 7 pages. My hat's off to you sir, well done.



huh?

He's comparing his fit (that we don't know about) with mine and makes statements based on that including drone dps (indicating he is also not taking into account the OP's situation, but the fits in and of themselves). which means that, for now at least, we're in "comparing mode" :)

And for that I'm genuinely interested in the fit he'll come up with. I made my own but I want to see where he gets his statements from.


You're assuming stuff I'm not saying, like how Rokhs should compete with Marauders (never stated anything the like, because that would be silly) and more stuff like that.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#133 - 2015-01-31 19:00:31 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Low skill character sniping BS setup in an afterburner, before the MJD? Yeah, pretty sure the survivability on that was pretty low to begin with. Im certain people would go MWDs with a sniping BS setup. But then again, thats just me. You know, the whole "I dont want to lose my ship" thingy.

But I still dont understand what the point of the afterburner is. When a group of frigs/bs rats spawn 25 km from your location, and the frigs start burning towards you at 700m/s while the bs burn at 300 m/s, if you dont have a MWD, youre gonna have to be using and relying on the MJD to gain distance, a tactic you sorely seem to hate. Whats the point of the Afterburner? can you please shed some light on your tactic that doesnt rely on MJD that applies to a low skilled character with poor speed/poor drones skills?


No, people did just fine. Many went lulzy super cap stable fits like CCC ravens and double repped Domis (just like they still do) but others did just fine with old style Geddons, megas and whatnot. Almost no one would fit MWD (Machs would be the exception). We did fine without MJD, we did fine before rigs and with "fine" I mean that we wouldn't blow up every 20 seconds.

AB helps closing distance to missions target (gate/wreck) and helps lowering tracking issues would there be any. tactics used are the same we've been doing for years. MJD added funkiness to it but really only shines (imo, but yeah I'm a nag) on marauders due to cycle bonus and damage projection. On current "normal" missions BS it's used as an extra (or a replacement for some, but that means losing time), either to travel or to get out of trouble would it be necessary.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2015-01-31 19:03:35 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So you use your drones... from MJD ranges. Nice. Care to link a fit?


You are aware that ships burn towards you, right? And that you can use your drones once they are in range? I mean, the DPS of the hyperion only took into consideration the Wardens DPS, as it is far higher than that of Hobgoblins. And yet, wardens are useless at close range.

So yes, in the Hyperion DPS, i included wardens, that are decent at long range but useless at close. In the Rokh, i included Hobgoblin DPS that are useless at long ranges but decent at close ranges.

Considering how the Warden has twice the damage of the hobgoblin, and since your hyperion isnt relying on the MJD to gain range every time your wardens become useless, I think thats fair. Dont you?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#135 - 2015-01-31 19:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
I think you should link your fit :) Also, you can't use drones till targets are in control range which is max 60km but generally a lot less for most people. 40-50km doesn't seem like a great distance to be at with a non-tanked Rokh with its MJD on cooldown and no tracking (depending on npc type).
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-01-31 19:16:20 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Low skill character sniping BS setup in an afterburner, before the MJD? Yeah, pretty sure the survivability on that was pretty low to begin with. Im certain people would go MWDs with a sniping BS setup. But then again, thats just me. You know, the whole "I dont want to lose my ship" thingy.

But I still dont understand what the point of the afterburner is. When a group of frigs/bs rats spawn 25 km from your location, and the frigs start burning towards you at 700m/s while the bs burn at 300 m/s, if you dont have a MWD, youre gonna have to be using and relying on the MJD to gain distance, a tactic you sorely seem to hate. Whats the point of the Afterburner? can you please shed some light on your tactic that doesnt rely on MJD that applies to a low skilled character with poor speed/poor drones skills?


No, people did just fine. Many went lulzy super cap stable fits like CCC ravens and double repped Domis (just like they still do) but others did just fine with old style Geddons, megas and whatnot. Almost no one would fit MWD (Machs would be the exception). We did fine without MJD, we did fine before rigs and with "fine" I mean that we wouldn't blow up every 20 seconds.

AB helps closing distance to missions target (gate/wreck) and helps lowering tracking issues would there be any. tactics used are the same we've been doing for years. MJD added funkiness to it but really only shines (imo, but yeah I'm a nag) on marauders due to cycle bonus and damage projection. On current "normal" missions BS it's used as an extra (or a replacement for some, but that means losing time), either to travel or to get out of trouble would it be necessary.


Im not talking about the good old days with decent and experienced players, im talking about today, for inexperienced and low skilled players.

In the past, frigate NPCs didnt prioritize drones(Even I lose a couple every now and again when i run L4s today because of this). When a new player experiences how his/her drones constantly gets torn up, and he keeps having to warp back to station to replenish his drone supplies, what do you think hes gonna do? Hes gonna use his MJD to gain distance and blap the frigates so that he doesnt have to waste time and money dealing with them, which just happens to be the exact same tactic that we use with rokhs.

So how is an afterburner supposed to help with this? Atleast with an MWD, you can go faster than the frigs, gain distance, and use your railguns to kill them.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#137 - 2015-01-31 19:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Quote:
Im not talking about the good old days with decent and experienced players


People were just as new and inexperienced as they are today and I'd say these days it's actually better due to better NPE, lots more guides, youtubes, wikis and whatnot.

MWD messes up fittings and cap like bastard even if you don't use it. On tight fits like most ships it generally doesn't make sense to use them because of that.


NPC behaviour has indeed changed but with a little bit of experience it's very easy to predict their aggression behaviour, it's also why you keep your lights at short range (they're for close range frigs and you don't want them to die when aggroed) with sentries as alternative when you don't have to move anymore; high dps, good ranges and instant reeling in in case of aggro.

It's also why counting drone dps on your MJD rokh isn't realistic, even if the targets finally get in drone control range the drones are still going to get in trouble when aggroed, due to them being so far from your ship.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-01-31 19:48:41 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I think you should link your fit :) Also, you can't use drones till targets are in control range which is max 60km but generally a lot less for most people. 40-50km doesn't seem like a great distance to be at with a non-tanked Rokh with its MJD on cooldown and no tracking (depending on npc type).


Who said it wasnt tanked. And sure, you cant use drones till targets are in control range. Did you miss the part where i said "Hobgoblins are useless at long range"? Did you miss the part where i said I included the DPS from the Wardens for the Hyperion, despite the fact that they too, would be useless at short ranges and you would need to switch to Hobgoblins, which deals about half the damage?

Drones on a sniping rokh are supposed to be there as a safety measure and only a minor DPS adder. If you happened to miss 1-2 frigs, you can dispatch them with your drones. And by the time the 1-2 battleships that are left moving towards you 30-40 km away get into range with your drones, you can use your drones to add a minor damage increase. Hobgoblins constitute a mere 60-70 dps compared to the 400-450 dps of the railguns(assuming poor skills, of course).

In any case, heres a simple random low skill fit i put together.

[Rokh, PVE rokh]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Kinetic Deflection Field I
Limited Thermic Dissipation Field I
Large Micro Jump Drive
[empty med slot]

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge L

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Ancillary Current Router I

Hobgoblin II x5

Low skill, 54km optimal with Antimatter, 17k hp sheild buffer tank. You can fit the extra empty med slot with another tank mod.

And yes, the exact same low skills on this, deals only 56 damage less than your hyperion with the same set of skills.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#139 - 2015-01-31 20:23:39 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
According to that logic a Drake is also fine and we should tell newbies to go use that.

before the tiericide I ran level 4s in a drake for a long long time before I could fly a BS. We had the learning skills back in those days so 6 months into this game I still could barely do anything but learn skills.

I think that you need to learn to quit while you're behind. You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.


You would have been better off chaining lvl 3 than gnawing on lvl 4s in a Drake, also back then HML and the Drake itself were a lot better. So yeah, facts and all that.

I'm not "behind" at all, as if discussions are to be won, we simply disagree on reasons to fly or recommend stuff. If you haven't noticed it really is clown Rex who does the sperging, I just react to it.




UHm, you were the one that started it by calling Rex's idea stupid.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#140 - 2015-01-31 20:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Gregor Parud wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You'll not see anyone suggesting that the Rokh is better than a Marauder for running level 4's.

Oh and towards the end you'll see yourself linking a fit with a cap booster on it and claiming that it is cap stable.



Who said anything about how the Rokh should compete with a marauder. Who said anything on that fit being stable?

"(hence the CCC for instance, making it stable on everything but the repper/AB)."

"(p.s. it's not difficult to run non stable fits)"



*cough* YOU DID.


Question was: Can a rokh be used for missions.

People said yes, you said: But, it's **** compared to a Kronos.



So...stop making a fool of yourself.



p.s.

Cap booster fitted....cap stable.


hahaha


Well, in general cap stable.

Only bears care about that. You seriously suck at fitting if you must fit for stability. I have missions ships with cap lifes of 5 minute full running, if you fail to clear a mission that fast (or know how to work your cap)...you seriously need to learn how to fly.

Your capacitor should only last as long as you need it to.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club